Fear or Peace?

[John of Japan]

Well, this thread seems to wander far from the OP, which was admittedly vague. So go to it folks; post what ever you want to.

I'll just make one more post (unless someone interacts with this). I believe fear is a perfectly legitimate tool for evangelistic efforts. The doctrine of Hell comes under eschatology in systematic theology. It and the doctrine of Heaven are called individual eschatology. Jude 1:23 says, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

My wife was a lost, 20-year-old church attender, home from Bible college, when an evangelist preached on Hell and scared her to life. She went down front at the invitation, and though her pastor said, "But you've already been saved" (referring to a childhood event), she wept her way to the throne of God with her pastor's wife's help, and was saved. I'll be eternally grateful to the evangelist who preached on Hell.

 

[1689Dave]

On another thread, premillennialists were accused of trafficking in fear. I was urged to go get out of my ivory tower and go to Facebook, of all things, to learn the truth. Well, frankly I've never seen any good theology on FB.

At any rate, I also have an in-law who always tries to get me to accept his pre-wrath position. He is worried that I will not be ready for the Tribulation when it comes. He thinks our students will fall apart during the Tribulation because it will catch them by surprise. Persecution will destroy them.

Here's the thing. As any evangelical Bible college should, we teach our students to walk with God--the "Christ walk" as folks used to call it. If you are walking with Jesus daily in prayer and Bible study, you will be prepared if there is a tribulation or not. You will be prepared for persecution, which is no doubt coming soon in America. If you are walking with Christ He will be with you no matter what, and He will comfort you and give you strength. This is a wonderful thing to know in these troubled times. If a premillennialist is not walking with Jesus, well sure, he will be in fear. But that's true no matter what your eschatology is.

Please permit a personal testimony. Just before Christmas in 2019 I came down with diverticulitis and was in the hospital for three days. They then discharged me, telling me I'd have to have surgery eventually. However, the very next day my intestines burst, and poison went all through my body. I had intense pain and fever, so my wife took me again to the emergency room. They examined me and decided that I needed immediate emergency surgery. In God's providence, there was a surgical team just finishing up, so on Christmas Eve I had major surgery. (I had a follow-up surgery in June last year, but that's another story.)

After the surgery I had blood clots and other complications, so I was kept in the hospital for almost three weeks. Physically that was the most difficult time of my entire life, but Jesus was with me in an incredible way. I had amazing peace all the time I was in the hospital in a way I've never experienced before. It was the veritable "valley of the shadow of death" the Psalmist spoke of. I can't describe how wonderful it was to be in that hospital bed with tubes stuck in various places in my body. God is so good.

So, if in these troubled times you are suffering, you are persecuted, you are sick, you are lonely, you are discouraged--walk with God! Go to Him in prayer and unburden your whole heart. Open the Word of God and let it fill you. If you have believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior, He is with you. The Holy Spirit in your heart is the Comforter and the Helper (two meanings of the Greek word), and will be with you.

Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start World War III … to Speed Up the Second Coming

Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start World War III … to Speed Up the Second Coming - Global Research

 

[John of Japan]

Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start World War III … to Speed Up the Second Coming

Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start World War III … to Speed Up the Second Coming - Global Research

I read most of the article and looked at the rest. First of all it has absolutely no source for the "millions" statement (or most of the other statements, such as the idiotic reference to President Bush). So, it's "fake news." Oh, and just to illustrate the "fake news" aspect, neither Pat Robertson nor Billy Graham were ever pastors of a "mega-church." But if you wish to believe junk like that, it's up to you.

But even if it were true, the article has absolutely nothing to do with normative premillennial dispensationalism.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe fear is a perfectly legitimate tool for evangelistic efforts.

Did you use this fear tactic in Japan? How many Japanese did you save by frightening them?

 

[1689Dave]

I read most of the article and looked at the rest. First of all it has absolutely no source for the "millions" statement (or most of the other statements, such as the idiotic reference to President Bush). So, it's "fake news." Oh, and just to illustrate the "fake news" aspect, Billy Graham was never pastor of a "mega-church." But if you wish to believe junk like that, it's up to you.

But even if it were true, the article has absolutely nothing to do with normative premillennial dispensationalism.

It is in every church I've attended except one Reformed Church. It's primarily the Rapturists sects that infiltrated Evangelicalism.

 

[John of Japan]

Did you use this fear tactic in Japan? How many Japanese did you save by frightening them?

I did not save any Japanese whatsoever (Doctrines 101).

 

[John of Japan]

It is in every church I've attended except one Reformed Church. It's primarily the Rapturists sects that infiltrated Evangelicalism.

I have no clue what you are trying to communicate here.

 

[kyredneck]

I did not save any Japanese whatsoever (Doctrines 101).

Oh, it sounded as if you were advocating save them by scaring them:

Jude 1:23 says, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

 

[1689Dave]

I have no clue what you are trying to communicate here.

I returned for a visit to a GARBC Church I used to attend. And I thought they were guilty of child abuse by pumping fear of the future generated by Dispensationalism into their minds. Why not drop out of school and throw all to the wind if Jesus is to return like they said many times before based on their calculations?

 

[John of Japan]

Oh, it sounded as if you were advocating save them by scaring them:

I preach the Gospel. Jesus saves, not me. This is basic doctrine.

Do you believe the Gospel? Part of the Gospel is that there is punishment for sin, and that punishment is eternal, and it is Hell, a literal place of fiery judgement. Christ took the punishment for our sins on the cross, which means He suffered Hell for us. If the lost sinner does not believe in Christ, he or she will suffer eternal punishment in Hell.

 

[John of Japan]

I returned for a visit to a GARBC Church I used to attend. And I thought they were guilty of child abuse by pumping fear of the future generated by Dispensationalism into their minds. Why not drop out of school and throw all to the wind if Jesus is to return like they said many times before based on their calculations?

Are you trying to talk to me about your opinions? Or trying to debate about the Word of God? I'm really not seeing what you are up to here, but I am truly not interested in your subjective opinions.

Do you believe there is a Hell of eternal judgement for those who do not believe in Christ? If there is a Hell, should not people fear it being in their future enough to get saved?

 

[kyredneck]

I preach the Gospel. Jesus saves, not me. This is basic doctrine.

Actually according to your doctrine the person saves themselves by making the right choice after the preacher delivers the right message.

 

[1689Dave]

Are you trying to talk to me about your opinions? Or trying to debate about the Word of God? I'm really not seeing what you are up to here, but I am truly not interested in your subjective opinions.

Do you believe there is a Hell of eternal judgement for those who do not believe in Christ? If there is a Hell, should not people fear it being in their future enough to get saved?

What they are telling these kids is not true. And it leads them into fear which is the opposite of faith.

 

[John of Japan]

What they are telling these kids is not true. And it leads them into fear which is the opposite of faith.

Show me in the Bible where fear is never legitimate for a lost person.

God says, "Fear me" in the Bible. Is that then wrong and unloving of God?

 

[John of Japan]

Actually according to your doctrine the person saves themselves by making the right choice after the preacher delivers the right message.

You really should not make guesses about my doctrine. And please don't bear false witness about me. I said people don't save themselves, and I absolutely meant it. I don't believe in the straw man called "decisional regeneration."

 

[kyredneck]

You really should not make guesses about my doctrine.

I grew up in an evangelical dispensational SB Church, I seriously doubt there would be much guessing.

And please don't bear false witness about me.

Please don't be such a crybaby, spare me the drama.

I said people don't save themselves, and I absolutely meant it.

Oh but the scripture is clear, people can save themselves:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

I don't believe in the straw man called "decisional regeneration."

Right....

 

[John of Japan]

I grew up in an evangelical dispensational SB Church, I seriously doubt there would be much guessing.



Please don't be such a crybaby, spare me the drama.



Oh but the scripture is clear, people can save themselves:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2



Right....

Do you have an actual doctrinal purpose here, or do you only want to harass me? You're not really debating.

 

[kyredneck]

Do you have an actual doctrinal purpose here, or do you only want to harass me? You're not really debating.

You're right. I'll leave it.

FTR, I disagree with your take on Jude 1:23. The ones doing the saving are the ones that are to fear lest they be drawn into the same error of those they're trying to save. If you're trying to justify fear tactics in preaching that's the wrong passage to use.

 

[John of Japan]

You're right. I'll leave it.

FTR, I disagree with your take on Jude 1:23. The ones doing the saving are the ones that are to fear lest they be drawn into the same error of those they're trying to save. If trying to justify fear tactics in preaching that's the wrong passage to use.

The Greek of the verse for "in fear" is ἐν φοβῳ (en fobo), which I believe is a dative of means, meaning it can be translated as "Save by means of fear." In other words, it is clearly the person being saved for who fear becomes a motive.

 

[kyredneck]

The Greek of the verse for "in fear" is ἐν φοβῳ (en fobo), which I believe is a dative of means, meaning it can be translated as "Save by means of fear." In other words, it is clearly the person being saved for who fear becomes a motive.

"Save by means of fear" doesn't jibe with any of the translations I have.

22 And on some have mercy, who are in doubt;
23 and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. ASV

22 and to some be kind, judging thoroughly,
23 and some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted. YLT

More

[add]

NLT conveys my take on it:

Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

Peruse the linked passages, no where do I get 'save them by scaring them'.