Excellent! Two great prophecies proving that Jesus will reign on the throne of David and rebuild the Davidic kingdom. Thank you!
"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev.20:4).
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Fear or Peace?
- Thread starter John of Japan
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"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev.20:4).
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Pick one of many doctrines that do not harmonize between groups.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But, it was to happen when David was buried. That is now, before the resurrection.
“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)
Notice the Kingdom is now before the resurrection on the last day. While David remains buried.
I'm not real clear as to what you are trying to say here. The passage prophesies Jesus.
Jesus is in the kingly line of David, a descendent of David both through his mother and his adoptive father Joseph. Therefore, it is Jesus who is the seed of David and will reign on the Davidic throne. The passage you quoted prophesies this.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But it already happened. You missed it looking for a physical kingdom. And it is today's reality since the first century. Pssssst. It happens while David is still buried, i.e., before the resurrection.
But you see, Revelation is prophecy and it hasn't happened yet.
But you interpret "spiritually" or "allegorically," or however you want to put it. However, God meant what He said--literally.
Seldom have I had such a strange debate on the BB.
I wish you'd quit giving your opinion for fact.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
John said “THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (symbols, not to be read literally) it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)
But you are missing all of it, never to see it in a million lifetimes because of your forced literalism.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are completely wrong when it comes to Revelation.
“THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)
Nope, sorry, the Greek word translated "signify" (σημαίνω) does not mean "speak in symbols." It means, "1. make known, report, communicate Ac 25:27; Rv 1:1.—2. indicate (beforehand), foretell J 12:33; 18:32; 21:19; Ac 11:28" (Ginrich's Shorter Lexicon, p. 180).
Literal interpretation is never forced. It is simply natural. Would you go to the grocery store and say, "I believe this price of 1000 pennies for this package of steak means that we are free to pay whatever we want." Of course not. So you use literal interpretation in your daily life, but then think that God can't be literal and clear in His meaning.
Non-literal interpretation:
1. Doubts that God can prophesy clearly.
2. Ignores the fact that all prophecies of Christ's first coming, His incarnation, were fulfilled literally.
3. Makes a human being through his own interpretation the authority, rather than God.
4. Is unnatural. It goes against normal human communication.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
God blinded the Pharisees using literalism so they could not understand scripture.
Proof? Where does the Bible say this?
Actually, the Bible says the opposite. Christ used parables (extended metaphors, figurative language) to hide the truth from unbelievers (Matthew 13:10-13).
On the other hand, He commended the Pharisees for their literal interpretation of the OT laws on tithing (Matthew 23:23).
37818
Well-Known Member
The pre millennial pre rapture first resurrection. Per 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and Revelation 20:4-6.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But, he blinded them so they could not understand scripture. They were Premillennialists. They interpreted the kingdom prophecies literally and missed their meaning altogether.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Twisted from its context. Scripture never mentions a "pre-trib Rapture".
37818
Well-Known Member
Where did you get a pre trib rapture out of those two texts? Those two texts only teach a post resurrection rapture adding context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
They could not have been premillennialists, since the 1000 year reign of Christ had not been clearly prophesied in Rev. 20 yet. And you completely missed the Scripture I quoted, giving none of your own--once again. I'm not sure you've given any Scripture whatever on this thread. Have you?
But yes, the Jews failed to understand the Kingdom of God, and then interpreted Davidic kingdom prophecies literally, such as when Christ made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. The Bible says (why don't you ever quote the Bible?), "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest" (Matthew 21:9). But guess what. Jesus set the whole thing up! He accepted the adulation of the crowd, who believed He was the seed of David, the literal "son of David." And Jesus did not rebuke them, but accepted their praise.
Then, at His Ascension, the disciples asked Him whether it was time for the Davidic kingdom. Did He rebuke them for their literal interpretation? No, He reassured them that God had the right time for the Davidic kingdom figured out. Here it is in Acts 1: "6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Jesus did NOT answer His Apostles by stating that ther Kingdom will never get back to Israel. but that now is not the time for that, as now is the time to be part of harvesting souls and maturing the saved!
Been following this discussion at a distance;
The main difficulty concerns the interpretation of the quote from Amos. Most premillennial commentators interpret it to refer to the second coming of Christ and the future restoration of David’s throne, followed by worldwide witness to the Gentiles in the millennium. Thus James would be arguing that since Amos predicted the future inclusion of the Gentiles in God’s purpose apart from their becoming Jewish proselytes, there is therefore no need for them to become Jewish proselytes in the present situation (John MacArthur, Jr., Acts 13-28 in The MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Moody Press], p. 69).
It seems to me, however, that James is using the quote from Amos to refer to what God was doing in the present, not to what He would do in the future. This is not to deny a future aspect and greater fulfillment of the prophecy in the millennial kingdom. But I think James uses the quote to establish that God’s purpose in the present age includes the calling of the Gentiles apart from their becoming Jews (see Stedman's sermon Acts 15:1-21 What's God Doing?).
Here are some premill guys, but if you reverse it, it supports the other view;
Warren Wiersbe assesses this difficult passage quoted by James as follows - Note that (James) did not state that what Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had said was a fulfillment of this prophecy. He said that what Amos wrote agreed with their testimony. A careful reading of Amos 9:8-15 reveals that the prophet is describing events in the end times, when God will regather His people Israel to their land and bless them abundantly. If we "spiritualize" these promises, we rob them of their plain meaning and James' argument falls apart. Amos also prophesied that the fallen house ("tent") of David would be raised up and God would fulfill His covenant with David that a king would sit on his throne (see 2 Sam. 7:25-29). This future King, of course, will be Jesus Christ, the Son of David (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Isa. 9:6-7; Luke 1:32) who will reign over Israel during the kingdom. In fact, the only Jew alive today who can prove His genealogy and defend His kingship is Jesus Christ! God revealed these truths gradually to His people, but His plan had been settled from the beginning. Neither the Cross nor the church were afterthoughts with God (Acts 2:23; 4:27-28; Eph. 1:4). The Judaizers thought that Israel had to "rise" in her glorious kingdom before the Gentiles could be saved, but God revealed that it was through Israel's "fall" that the Gentiles would find salvation (Rom. 11:11-16). At the time of the Jerusalem Conference, David's house and throne indeed were fallen; but they would be restored one day and the kingdom established. (Ibid)
Messianic Jewish writer Steven Ger gives us his analysis of the Amos 9:11-12 passage - The Amos passage speaks of God's restoration of the fallen ruins of the tabernacle of David during the future messianic kingdom. (ED: THAT IS WHAT ONE WOULD CONCLUDE IF THE PROPHECY IS INTERPRETED LITERALLY) The tabernacle was a picture of the house of David, the Davidic dynasty, which metaphorically fell into ruin when the final Davidic king was deposed from power by Babylon (2 Ki 25:7). Amos promised that, in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sa 7:12-16), the dynasty of David would be restored to its former glory in the messianic kingdom.
The Amos passage goes on to relate that when the kingdom of God is established (IN THE MILLENNIUM), Gentile salvation will be normative. James was not claiming that because of the contemporary salvation of Gentiles that this prophecy was presently being fulfilled, wholly or partially. Rather, James was making a rather sophisticated present day application of a future prophecy. If Gentile salvation is to be understood as normative within the messianic kingdom, it should not be very surprising to anyone if Gentile salvation were to occur somewhat earlier. James was arguing that there was nothing unbiblical or even unanticipated concerning the salvation of Gentiles and that future Gentile salvation in no way precluded contemporary Gentile salvation. The reason James chose this particular passage from Amos is that it shows Gentiles seeking God specifically as Gentiles, and not as Jewish proselytes, masterfully settling the issue of whether circumcision was necessary. James finishes his application with a reminder to recognize that the testimony of Scripture is that the inclusion of Gentiles in God's program has always been part of His plan. Indeed, the Messiah was expected to be a light to multitudes of Gentiles (Isa. 42:6; 49:6).
There are some who misinterpret James here, believing that he was arguing that this prophecy was fulfilled by first century contemporary circumstances. They erroneously suppose that the ruined tabernacle of David is the church. It is difficult to determine how they could hold this broadly spiritualized view, as David's tabernacle is described as fallen and in ruins, in need of restoration. Anyone who has read the first fifteen chapters of Acts definitely knows this description not to be true of the victorious first century church! Amos was prophesying of Israel, not of the church, which was an undisclosed mystery within the Hebrew Scripture (Eph. 3:4-5; Col. 1:26-27). (Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary – The Book of Acts: Witnesses to the World)
The main difficulty concerns the interpretation of the quote from Amos. Most premillennial commentators interpret it to refer to the second coming of Christ and the future restoration of David’s throne, followed by worldwide witness to the Gentiles in the millennium. Thus James would be arguing that since Amos predicted the future inclusion of the Gentiles in God’s purpose apart from their becoming Jewish proselytes, there is therefore no need for them to become Jewish proselytes in the present situation (John MacArthur, Jr., Acts 13-28 in The MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Moody Press], p. 69).
It seems to me, however, that James is using the quote from Amos to refer to what God was doing in the present, not to what He would do in the future. This is not to deny a future aspect and greater fulfillment of the prophecy in the millennial kingdom. But I think James uses the quote to establish that God’s purpose in the present age includes the calling of the Gentiles apart from their becoming Jews (see Stedman's sermon Acts 15:1-21 What's God Doing?).
Here are some premill guys, but if you reverse it, it supports the other view;
Warren Wiersbe assesses this difficult passage quoted by James as follows - Note that (James) did not state that what Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had said was a fulfillment of this prophecy. He said that what Amos wrote agreed with their testimony. A careful reading of Amos 9:8-15 reveals that the prophet is describing events in the end times, when God will regather His people Israel to their land and bless them abundantly. If we "spiritualize" these promises, we rob them of their plain meaning and James' argument falls apart. Amos also prophesied that the fallen house ("tent") of David would be raised up and God would fulfill His covenant with David that a king would sit on his throne (see 2 Sam. 7:25-29). This future King, of course, will be Jesus Christ, the Son of David (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Isa. 9:6-7; Luke 1:32) who will reign over Israel during the kingdom. In fact, the only Jew alive today who can prove His genealogy and defend His kingship is Jesus Christ! God revealed these truths gradually to His people, but His plan had been settled from the beginning. Neither the Cross nor the church were afterthoughts with God (Acts 2:23; 4:27-28; Eph. 1:4). The Judaizers thought that Israel had to "rise" in her glorious kingdom before the Gentiles could be saved, but God revealed that it was through Israel's "fall" that the Gentiles would find salvation (Rom. 11:11-16). At the time of the Jerusalem Conference, David's house and throne indeed were fallen; but they would be restored one day and the kingdom established. (Ibid)
Messianic Jewish writer Steven Ger gives us his analysis of the Amos 9:11-12 passage - The Amos passage speaks of God's restoration of the fallen ruins of the tabernacle of David during the future messianic kingdom. (ED: THAT IS WHAT ONE WOULD CONCLUDE IF THE PROPHECY IS INTERPRETED LITERALLY) The tabernacle was a picture of the house of David, the Davidic dynasty, which metaphorically fell into ruin when the final Davidic king was deposed from power by Babylon (2 Ki 25:7). Amos promised that, in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sa 7:12-16), the dynasty of David would be restored to its former glory in the messianic kingdom.
The Amos passage goes on to relate that when the kingdom of God is established (IN THE MILLENNIUM), Gentile salvation will be normative. James was not claiming that because of the contemporary salvation of Gentiles that this prophecy was presently being fulfilled, wholly or partially. Rather, James was making a rather sophisticated present day application of a future prophecy. If Gentile salvation is to be understood as normative within the messianic kingdom, it should not be very surprising to anyone if Gentile salvation were to occur somewhat earlier. James was arguing that there was nothing unbiblical or even unanticipated concerning the salvation of Gentiles and that future Gentile salvation in no way precluded contemporary Gentile salvation. The reason James chose this particular passage from Amos is that it shows Gentiles seeking God specifically as Gentiles, and not as Jewish proselytes, masterfully settling the issue of whether circumcision was necessary. James finishes his application with a reminder to recognize that the testimony of Scripture is that the inclusion of Gentiles in God's program has always been part of His plan. Indeed, the Messiah was expected to be a light to multitudes of Gentiles (Isa. 42:6; 49:6).
There are some who misinterpret James here, believing that he was arguing that this prophecy was fulfilled by first century contemporary circumstances. They erroneously suppose that the ruined tabernacle of David is the church. It is difficult to determine how they could hold this broadly spiritualized view, as David's tabernacle is described as fallen and in ruins, in need of restoration. Anyone who has read the first fifteen chapters of Acts definitely knows this description not to be true of the victorious first century church! Amos was prophesying of Israel, not of the church, which was an undisclosed mystery within the Hebrew Scripture (Eph. 3:4-5; Col. 1:26-27). (Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary – The Book of Acts: Witnesses to the World)
I myself think it is clearly speaking of the NT. Church
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN - Tabernacle (or booth) of David refers to the dynasty of David. Some interpret this figuratively and say this was fulfilled by Christ's resurrection! Others interpret this literally and when interpreted in this way it refers to a literal Tabernacle of David.
Regarding the "Tabernacle of David" read the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6-7 which we often hear at Christmas but often fail to grasp the yet future aspect to be fulfilled at the Second Coming.
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us (MESSIAH'S FIRST COMING); And the government will rest on His shoulders (MESSIAH'S SECOND COMING); And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David (CP "REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN") and over his kingdom (THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM), To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7+)
Comment - It is worth quoting the comment in the ESV Study Bible which often is generally "amillennial" in prophetic passages. This comment however seems to leave that door "open" explaining that the Prince of Peace "is the ruler whose reign will bring about peace because the nations (IMPLICATION? THERE WILL BE NATIONS AND NATIONS NORMALLY IN THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF GENTILES! Compare comments on Zechariah 14:16-19+ A PASSAGE THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO INTERPRET LITERALLY IF THERE WERE NO LITERAL MESSIANIC KINGDOM!) will rely on His just decisions in their disputes (cf. Isa. 2:4+; Isa 11:6-9+; Isa 42:4; 49:7; Isa 52:15+). This kind of king contrasts with even the best of the Davidic line that Judah has experienced so far, because these titles show that this king will be divine. (ESV Study Bible)
Then again;
INTERPRETATION OF AMOS 9:11-12
A DIFFICULT PASSAGE
For a fuller treatment of this difficult passage the reader is referred to the paper by Charles Zimmerman - “To This Agree the Words of the Prophets,” Grace Journal 4:3 (Fall 1963):28-40. Here is the summary of the interpretation Zimmerman favors - regardless of which interpretation you hold, this paper is highly recommended as it deals with all of the major interpretations...
In summary, James makes reference to Peter's declaration concerning God's i!!:§! taking out of ' the Gentiles a people for His name. This primarily involved His plan of including both Jew and Gentile in the New Testament Church. To this, James says, the words of the prophets concerning the Messianic Kingdom agree. The time order of the events are in perfect harmony. After this period of Gentile conversion, the Lord will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David and establish His reign in the promised Messianic Kingdom. During this time Israel shall enjoy their promised blessings and the residue of men (identified as "all the Gentiles") shall seek after the Lord.
A legitimate paraphrase may read as follows: "Simeon has declared (led out in the full meaning of) how God first visited the Gentiles to take out from among them a people for (to bear) His name. And to this visitation of the Gentiles the words of the prophets agree with respect to the order of events in God's plan, as it is written, After these things pertaining to Gentile conversion under grace, I will return (in glory) and I will build again the tabernacle and throne of David which is fallen and I will build again the ruins of it and I will set it up again in the land ofits former domain. That the remainder of men might seek the Lord; namely, all" the Gentiles upon whom my name has been called, saith the Lord, who is doing these things" (Acts 15: 14-17).
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN - Tabernacle (or booth) of David refers to the dynasty of David. Some interpret this figuratively and say this was fulfilled by Christ's resurrection! Others interpret this literally and when interpreted in this way it refers to a literal Tabernacle of David.
Regarding the "Tabernacle of David" read the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6-7 which we often hear at Christmas but often fail to grasp the yet future aspect to be fulfilled at the Second Coming.
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us (MESSIAH'S FIRST COMING); And the government will rest on His shoulders (MESSIAH'S SECOND COMING); And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David (CP "REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN") and over his kingdom (THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM), To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7+)
Comment - It is worth quoting the comment in the ESV Study Bible which often is generally "amillennial" in prophetic passages. This comment however seems to leave that door "open" explaining that the Prince of Peace "is the ruler whose reign will bring about peace because the nations (IMPLICATION? THERE WILL BE NATIONS AND NATIONS NORMALLY IN THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF GENTILES! Compare comments on Zechariah 14:16-19+ A PASSAGE THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO INTERPRET LITERALLY IF THERE WERE NO LITERAL MESSIANIC KINGDOM!) will rely on His just decisions in their disputes (cf. Isa. 2:4+; Isa 11:6-9+; Isa 42:4; 49:7; Isa 52:15+). This kind of king contrasts with even the best of the Davidic line that Judah has experienced so far, because these titles show that this king will be divine. (ESV Study Bible)
Then again;
INTERPRETATION OF AMOS 9:11-12
A DIFFICULT PASSAGE
For a fuller treatment of this difficult passage the reader is referred to the paper by Charles Zimmerman - “To This Agree the Words of the Prophets,” Grace Journal 4:3 (Fall 1963):28-40. Here is the summary of the interpretation Zimmerman favors - regardless of which interpretation you hold, this paper is highly recommended as it deals with all of the major interpretations...
In summary, James makes reference to Peter's declaration concerning God's i!!:§! taking out of ' the Gentiles a people for His name. This primarily involved His plan of including both Jew and Gentile in the New Testament Church. To this, James says, the words of the prophets concerning the Messianic Kingdom agree. The time order of the events are in perfect harmony. After this period of Gentile conversion, the Lord will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David and establish His reign in the promised Messianic Kingdom. During this time Israel shall enjoy their promised blessings and the residue of men (identified as "all the Gentiles") shall seek after the Lord.
A legitimate paraphrase may read as follows: "Simeon has declared (led out in the full meaning of) how God first visited the Gentiles to take out from among them a people for (to bear) His name. And to this visitation of the Gentiles the words of the prophets agree with respect to the order of events in God's plan, as it is written, After these things pertaining to Gentile conversion under grace, I will return (in glory) and I will build again the tabernacle and throne of David which is fallen and I will build again the ruins of it and I will set it up again in the land ofits former domain. That the remainder of men might seek the Lord; namely, all" the Gentiles upon whom my name has been called, saith the Lord, who is doing these things" (Acts 15: 14-17).
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ESV Study Bible Note - James concentrated on Amos 9:11-12, which looked to the time when God would restore the house of David. Luke provides the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the text, which speaks of the Gentiles (Gk. ethnē) seeking the Lord. But even the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text fits with what James argued, since it speaks of a people called by my name (Amos 9:12), and those called by God’s name are in a saving relationship with Him. Amos looked to a time when God would claim a people for himself from among the Gentiles. James concurred with Peter that the time of Gentile inclusion in God’s people had now arrived.
Derek Thomas (amillennial view) - James understood the restored Israel to be the church rather than ethnic Israel. It is precisely at this point that one imagines the assembly being struck with awe as the implications of the new covenant were pressed upon their minds through James’s words. The implication was clear: there was no longer an ethnic Israel that had any religious significance. The promises given to Israel were now firmly in the court of the church, and this church was made up of all those who put their trust in Jesus Christ, whatever their ethnic background. (REC - Acts)
(1) Some interpreters believe James meant that the inclusion of Gentiles in the church fulfilled God’s promise through Amos. (Lenski) These (generally amillennial) interpreters see the church as fulfilling God’s promises to Israel. This view seems to go beyond what Amos said since his prophecy concerns the tabernacle of David, which literally interpreted would involve Israel, not the church.
Derek Thomas (amillennial view) - James understood the restored Israel to be the church rather than ethnic Israel. It is precisely at this point that one imagines the assembly being struck with awe as the implications of the new covenant were pressed upon their minds through James’s words. The implication was clear: there was no longer an ethnic Israel that had any religious significance. The promises given to Israel were now firmly in the court of the church, and this church was made up of all those who put their trust in Jesus Christ, whatever their ethnic background. (REC - Acts)
(1) Some interpreters believe James meant that the inclusion of Gentiles in the church fulfilled God’s promise through Amos. (Lenski) These (generally amillennial) interpreters see the church as fulfilling God’s promises to Israel. This view seems to go beyond what Amos said since his prophecy concerns the tabernacle of David, which literally interpreted would involve Israel, not the church.
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