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Based on faith
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 (NASB)
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
In the above passage we see Paul using a similar Greek construction to express a similar concept. Out of one situation and into another situation.
An aroma presents to God the pending Justice of Christ. Those who are perishing present an aroma of those who are spiritually dead and heading into the Second Death, whereas those who have been placed in Christ present an aroma of those who are spiritually alive and heading into their bodily redemption.
Similarly Romans 1:17 indicates that in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith into faith." Or, as interpreted by me, from Old Covenant Faith into New Covenant Faith. Gentiles, having no Old Covenant Faith are saved through or by means of New Covenant Faith. Romans 3:30
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
In the above passage we see Paul using a similar Greek construction to express a similar concept. Out of one situation and into another situation.
An aroma presents to God the pending Justice of Christ. Those who are perishing present an aroma of those who are spiritually dead and heading into the Second Death, whereas those who have been placed in Christ present an aroma of those who are spiritually alive and heading into their bodily redemption.
Similarly Romans 1:17 indicates that in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith into faith." Or, as interpreted by me, from Old Covenant Faith into New Covenant Faith. Gentiles, having no Old Covenant Faith are saved through or by means of New Covenant Faith. Romans 3:30
The Greek preposition "ek" means out of or out from, and points to the origin of something. Out from faith refers to something arising from faith, or arising from God crediting our faith as righteousness, or arising from being faithful to God and His Christ. Salvation by grace is given to those whose faith is credited as righteousness by God. And is accomplished when God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, rebirth as a new creation, and are then indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Thus all the blessings of salvation can be said to be "based on our credited by God faith.!" This is the meaning of being saved by grace through or by means of faith.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Calvinism denies we are saved by grace through or by means of faith. Their doctrine is we were chosen to be saved, then given faith. And the question of where faith comes from has been answered and re-answered time and again. The question's answer is ignored and the question re-asked as part of the "endless question ploy" to harass non-Calvinists.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ was drawn by the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and learned from the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and understood the good news, the gospel of Christ.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ believed the inspired message provided by God.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God as righteousness is put into Christ by God alone.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God had their filthy rag faith declared righteous by God.
In order for salvation to be of grace, it must be through or by means of faith.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ was drawn by the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and learned from the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and understood the good news, the gospel of Christ.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ believed the inspired message provided by God.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God as righteousness is put into Christ by God alone.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God had their filthy rag faith declared righteous by God.
In order for salvation to be of grace, it must be through or by means of faith.
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 (NASB)
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
In the above passage we see Paul using a similar Greek construction to express a similar concept. Out of one situation and into another situation.
An aroma presents to God the pending Justice of Christ. Those who are perishing present an aroma of those who are spiritually dead and heading into the Second Death, whereas those who have been placed in Christ present an aroma of those who are spiritually alive and heading into their bodily redemption.
Similarly Romans 1:17 indicates that in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith into faith." Or, as interpreted by me, from Old Covenant Faith into New Covenant Faith. Gentiles, having no Old Covenant Faith are saved through or by means of New Covenant Faith.
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?
In the above passage we see Paul using a similar Greek construction to express a similar concept. Out of one situation and into another situation.
An aroma presents to God the pending Justice of Christ. Those who are perishing present an aroma of those who are spiritually dead and heading into the Second Death, whereas those who have been placed in Christ present an aroma of those who are spiritually alive and heading into their bodily redemption.
Similarly Romans 1:17 indicates that in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith into faith." Or, as interpreted by me, from Old Covenant Faith into New Covenant Faith. Gentiles, having no Old Covenant Faith are saved through or by means of New Covenant Faith.
A quote from CH Spurgeon.
"When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this.
I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths [the doctrines of sovereign, overcoming grace] in my own soul — when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown, on a sudden, from a babe into a man — that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, that clue to the truth of God.
One weeknight, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it.
The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment — I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so?
Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, “I ascribe my change wholly to God.”"
"When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this.
I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths [the doctrines of sovereign, overcoming grace] in my own soul — when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown, on a sudden, from a babe into a man — that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, that clue to the truth of God.
One weeknight, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it.
The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment — I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so?
Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, “I ascribe my change wholly to God.”"
The above blurb has been copy and pasted by Calvinists many times on this forum. But no response to post #87?
In the above blurb, the fact that we put our faith in what God has revealed is equated falsely with instilling "the gift of faith" via irresistible grace. Note how none of those bogus concepts are mentioned.
"False words must hide what false doctrine doth provide."
In the above blurb, the fact that we put our faith in what God has revealed is equated falsely with instilling "the gift of faith" via irresistible grace. Note how none of those bogus concepts are mentioned.
"False words must hide what false doctrine doth provide."
Galatians 2:16 (Edited and Interpreted version)
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified based on the works of the Law but by means of Christ Jesus's faithfulness, even we have believed into Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not based on the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no person will be justified.
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified based on the works of the Law but by means of Christ Jesus's faithfulness, even we have believed into Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not based on the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no person will be justified.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Standing as an independent observer ( I'm not "Reformed", but I agree 100% with "TULIP"),
I can say in all honesty that I've seen just as many "non-reformed" that act obnoxiously as there are "reformed".
I've even experienced some down-right violent reactions ( when this subject is discussed ),
from those who claim to be "Bible-defined Christians" ( their words ) and who believe that salvation can be lost, for example.
In other words,
they are very nice people right up until you tell them you believe something that they consider heresy,
and then they throw all of Christ's commands regarding Christian behavior right in the trash and even call those that they disagree with every name in the book (and then some).
It's like watching something that you thought was gentle and godly,
turn into a violent animal that might kill you;
All within a matter of minutes.
I think I know what you mean.
We all have a flesh that is uncooperative with us wanting to obey the Lord ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-17 )...
That is why He gave us His Spirit.
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Scripture says God credited Abraham's faith, not the faith God instilled in Abraham. Scripture says "your faith" has saved you, not your faith which God beamed in with His divine transporter, saved you.
By adding to scripture, any verse can be made to say the opposite of what God intended.
When the Greek reads "ek pisteos" the idea frequently is an action by God arising from crediting faith as righteousness. Thus we are justified based on God accepting Christ's faithfulness in that He sacrificed Himself as a ransom for all, provided God credits our faith in Christ's sacrifice.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ was drawn by the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and learned from the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and understood the good news, the gospel of Christ.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ believed the inspired message provided by God.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God as righteousness is put into Christ by God alone.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God had their filthy rag faith declared righteous by God.
In order for salvation to be of grace, it must be through or by means of faith.
By adding to scripture, any verse can be made to say the opposite of what God intended.
When the Greek reads "ek pisteos" the idea frequently is an action by God arising from crediting faith as righteousness. Thus we are justified based on God accepting Christ's faithfulness in that He sacrificed Himself as a ransom for all, provided God credits our faith in Christ's sacrifice.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ was drawn by the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and learned from the Father.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ heard and understood the good news, the gospel of Christ.
Everyone who puts their own faith in Christ believed the inspired message provided by God.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God as righteousness is put into Christ by God alone.
Everyone whose faith is credited by God had their filthy rag faith declared righteous by God.
In order for salvation to be of grace, it must be through or by means of faith.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
He didn't instill it...He gave it as a gift.
Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6,
Romans 4:3.
But according to Ephesians 2:8, faith is a gift.
In Hebrews 12:2, we see that this very same faith is authored ( created ) and finished ( perfected ) by Jesus Christ.
In Hebrews 11:1, we see that it is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.
In Galatians 2:16-20, we see that it is "of" Jesus Christ and that Paul lived by that same faith.
Finally, we see in Romans 5:17, that righteousness is a gift.
Gifts cannot be earned or merited, only rewards can.
Since salvation is a gift, given by grace through faith, than it cannot be because of it.
In other words, our individual faith shows that the believer is justified by God.
But the actual justifying is God making a person righteous by the blood of His Son, and looking upon that ( not our faith in it ) first.
He then looks upon a person's faith in that perfect work by His Son, and credits that as righteousness.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen, and I quite agree with all you've said here.
In Luke 7:50,
He told the woman that her faith has saved her in the temporal, or earthly sense.
However, in the eternal sense, faith does not save.
It is the product of the Lord's work in a person ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
But by taking into account all that the Scripture says about how and why a person believes on Christ,
one can put all the pieces together and come right back to the Lord graciously being the beginning and the end for all that a man or woman has...
Both in this world and in the world to come.
I'm sorry Van, but again, as in past threads on this subject,
I disagree.
The Scriptures teach that everyone who was chosen in Him ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) was put into Christ by God "begetting" them by His word ( James 1:18 ).
Everyone whose faith He credits, was given by Him to both believe on His Son, and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Before faith came to us, we as believers were shut up under the Law...
waiting for the truth to be revealed to us as His elect ( Galatians 3:23 ).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully,
It cannot be both.
In order for salvation to be of grace,
it must be through faith...
not by means of it.
It cannot rely on anything that we as men try to do to influence the Lord to save us.
That would be works, not grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
Therefore, "believing our way into the kingdom" is not how Scripture describes the process, Van.
Salvation is of the Lord.
It is not a co-operative effort between God and men.
God does not make deals with rebellious sinners...
He has mercy and compassion on whom He will ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 );
A fact that it seems you keep overlooking.
Van,
No matter how you keep trying to translate things, the fact remains...
Salvation is not by man's efforts at pleasing the Lord.
Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for what we do.
That's not "Calvinism"...that is the truth of Scripture.
I really wish you could see it.
It glorifies the Lord and abases us as the recipients of His unspeakable gift...
Eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ).
I wish you well, sir.
It seems that no matter how one tries, you simply will not ever see that faith is a gift from God, not of ourselves....
and that salvation is by grace and through faith...
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Complete fiction
Yes we know you disagree with verse after verse, as you have bought into the falsehoods of Calvinism