Thanks! That is most helpful. Election from eternity is clearly taught in Scripture, but Justification from eternity is an error, and Keach did not teach it.
It would be nice to think that @Van would acknowledge his misquotation.
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Individual Election Revisited
- Thread starter Van
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It would be nice to think that @Van would acknowledge his misquotation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Actually, you need to prove what you said is correct because you haven't. You just made a claim baseed on your theological lens. It's not only BDAG that says that by the way. Every major lexicon states that and points to that verse specifically. I don't need to provide credentials to you. I know what the verse says, I know what the Greek means.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the word itself means "to know beforehand". What lexicons do, is to add their theological bent to the way they define words. Like Thayers lexicon, where under "theos" he does not include the Deity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit, because he was a Unitarian. And in his Greek grammar, George Winer, on Titus 2:13, admits that the Greek says that Jesus Christ is "the Great God and Saviour"; but in a footnote adds, that his theology prevented him accepting this! Winer was also a Unitarian.
Many don't understand what "election" is. recently, Joe Biden was POTUS-elect from November to late January. Right now, WE are citizens-elect of God's kingdom.
Biden wasn't born elected; he BECAME elected by the US voters. Likewise, WE weren't born elected to God's kingdom; we BECAME elected by the only vote that is official-that of JESUS CHRIST, when we came to Him in belief, repentance, & submission, sincerely asking Him to save us. While God has chosen some for special service to Him, making them "offers they couldn't refuse, as he did to Moses, Jeremiah, & Paul, most of us who are saved had to come to the realization we needed to be saved, or we were going to die in sin & end up in hell, and act accordingly.
Biden wasn't born elected; he BECAME elected by the US voters. Likewise, WE weren't born elected to God's kingdom; we BECAME elected by the only vote that is official-that of JESUS CHRIST, when we came to Him in belief, repentance, & submission, sincerely asking Him to save us. While God has chosen some for special service to Him, making them "offers they couldn't refuse, as he did to Moses, Jeremiah, & Paul, most of us who are saved had to come to the realization we needed to be saved, or we were going to die in sin & end up in hell, and act accordingly.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Except that isn't what Scripture states.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm not saying it doesn't mean to know beforehand. But WHAT does he know beforehand is the question. YOU read into it that it means he knew we were going to believe and that is why we are predestined. But Scripture does not state that. Scripture does say we were chosen to be saved. We were chosen to be drawn. We were chosen by the father to come to Christ to be GIVEN to Christ.
Romans 8:29-30. 'For whom He foreknew [Gk. proginosko], He also predestined [Gk. proorizo], to be conformed to the image of His Son........Moreover, those whom He predestined, these He also called [Gk. kaleo]; whom He called, these He also justified [Gk. dikaio]; and whom He justified, these He also glorified [Gk. doxazo].'I just love it when the reformed turn to the Greek to support their theories, 99% of the time they misunderstand what is said, because they don't themselves know any Greek!
So here we have the Greek verb "προγινώσκω", which is a compound word, from "προ" "γινώσκω", the former meaning "before", and the latter, "to know". This is to have "foreknowledge" of anything that is to happen. I have checked BDAG under "γινώσκω", and cannot find a single instance where they say it means "choose"! What they have done in Romans 8:29, is to apply theology to the actual meaning of the Greek word, which has ZERO to do with any CHOOSING!
So your invitation to "go to the Greek", has backfired!
So (just in case anyone is confused, the word translated 'predestinated' is not proginosko. But ginosko and proginosko very often mean more than simply to 'know' or 'foreknow.' They have the meaning of knowing with active approval and delight. Of course God knows everybody in advance, but He doesn't view everybody with approval and delight (e.g. Psalms 7:11; 138:6).
For example:
Matthew 7:23. 'I never knew you!'
John 10:14. 'I am the good Shepherd and I know My own.'
Romans 11:2. 'God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.'
Galatians 4:9. 'But now, after you have know God, or rather, are known by Him......'
2 Timothy 2:19. The Lord knows who are His.
c.f. also Genesis 18:19; Jeremiah 1:5.
So God sets His love upon His people in eternity, and predestined them for salvation through the perfect life and propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
They don't want to know the truth...
thomas15
Well-Known Member
I think it very possible that some who are convinced that Unconditional Election et el as believed by the reformed is Biblical would find it difficult to maintain when one looks at the entire Bible sans the preconceived thoughts of their position. A recent visit by me to a well known internet chit-chat forum known for it's puritan theology illustrates plainly that some, but certainly not all who think this way (staunch 5 points) have what looks to me to be a bit of what I think is an ego due to their perceived election. I think that if our salvation is all of God then we should be nothing but grateful.
If nothing is impossible with God and if Godly OT Israelites were successful in getting Jehovah to change his mind regarding impending judgements then those who insist that they are personally elect from ancient times should consider constant fervent prayer to God begging that He expand his list of individuals elect to salvation.
If nothing is impossible with God and if Godly OT Israelites were successful in getting Jehovah to change his mind regarding impending judgements then those who insist that they are personally elect from ancient times should consider constant fervent prayer to God begging that He expand his list of individuals elect to salvation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Again, if we have anything to do with our salvation, that is a salvation of works.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
yet John 3:16 is very clear, that God SO LOVES not only "His people", but the entire human race! And 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus Christ is "a sin offering" not only for believers, but for the "whole world"
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
actually, the Greek verb, "ἕλκω", used in John 6:44, means, "drag, notion of force or exertion", as R C Sproul says of its use. Why would God need to "drag" someone who He has already "elected to salvation"? Though in 2 Corinthians 5: 20, Paul says, "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God". The word "beseech", is "παρακᾰλέω,", "to invite, appeal to, encourage".
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Notice neither of those refer to individuals.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
He drags us BECAUSE he elected (chose) us to be saved. In other words HE SAVES US. You actually supported my position. Thanks.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You would normally drag your children because they refuse to go with you
thomas15
Well-Known Member
In addition while we are commanded to maintain a blameless witness for Christ least we look like the world, why would this be necessary for the sake of others if those others are elect to salvation?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
there you go again assuming! I actually take the meaning as not "drag or draw", but "invite", as in the Invitation by Jesus Christ at the Wedding Feast parable.
You should know
Not what I said...
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