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Featured Jesus Christ IS The Yahweh of The Old Testament

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, May 21, 2021.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 10:9

    “We must not put the Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents”

    This verse is a clear quotation from the Old Testament passage in Numbers, where it reads:

    “Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.” (21:4-6)

    In this passage in Numbers, it is clear that the children of Israel complained against “'ĕlôhı̂ym”. It then goes on to say, that “Yehôvâh” sent “fiery serpents among the people”, that killed many.

    In 1 Corinthians 10, Paul, writing under the Inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, says that this “Yehôvâh” in Numbers 21:6, is Jesus Christ. Because of this clear Testimony to the Deity of The Lord Jesus Christ, where He is without any doubt called YHWH, the Eternal, Unchanging, Creator God, that some tried to corrupt the reading in the Corinthians text, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses have done in their version, in John 1:1, and other places. Instead of the reading “Christos”, we have in some of the modern versions, “Theos [God]”, and “Kurios [Lord]”, neither of which assert the Deity of Jesus Christ, as the reading “Christos”, does.

    In their Emphatic Diaglott, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who published it in 1942, have in the Greek text, “Christos”, and the English under it, “the Anointed”. Though in the English translation in the right column, it has “the Lord”, which is theological, rather than what the Greek says. Interestingly, in the cross-reference, it has the passage from Numbers 21, thereby they affirm the Deity of Jesus Christ, as the Greek says, “Christos”. The Unitarian New Testament by Dr George Noyes, reads “Christ”.

    The textual evidence overwhelmingly supports the reading “Christos”, in 1 Corinthians 10:9. The oldest Greek manuscript for this Letter of Paul, from around A.D. 200, the the Chester Beatty Papyri, P46. Before this time, we have the evidence of the Greek Church fathers, Irenaeus, who was born about A.D. 140; and Clement of Alexandria (150-215). Then, Origen (185-254), who was a heretic and denied that Jesus Christ is God; Eusebius (260-340). From the Latin Church, we have, Ambrose, Bishp of Malan (339-97), Augustine, Bishop of Hippo (354-430), both who knew Greek and used the Greek New Testament. Then, we also the the Syriac father, Ephraem (306-373), who came from Edessa.

    Of the English Versions that have the reading “Christos”, we have the, King James Version, New King James, Darby, Douay, New Living Translation, 21st Century King James, Webster, Contemporary English Version, New Century Version, Common English Bible, Young's Literal Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, Today’s New International Version, New International Version, and the English Standard Version.

    Of the older English Versions, we have “Christos”, in Wycliffe (1385), Tyndale (1526), Coverdale (1535), Great (1539), Bishop’s (1568), Geneva (1587).

    In Jude 5 there is a very interesting reading that is found in the English Standard Version:

    “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe”

    Instead of “the Lord”, we have “Jesus”, which has the far better textual evidence.

    The oldest Greek manuscript for the Letter of Jude, the Papyri Manuscript, known as P72, dating from between 200-250 A.D., reads: “Theos Christos” (God Christ). A similar reading can be found in Colossians 2:2, "Theou Christou" (of God Christ), and can be found as early as around A.D.200, in the Greek Papyri Manuscript, know as Chester Beatty, P46. Of the later Greek Manuscripts, we have the codices, Vaticanus, of the 4th century, and Alexandrinus, of the 5th. The support of the Ancient Versions, the Latin Vulgate, which is of the 4th century. The Coptic (Egyptian) Sahidic Version, 4th. The Armenian Version, 5th. Ethopic Version, about the 5th. The Church fathers who knew of the reading "Jesus", were, Didymus, "the blind", (A.D.313-398); Cyril of Alexandris (died 444); who were both of the Greek Church. Then, of the Latin Church we have, Jerome, who was responsible for the Latin Vulgate (342-420); John Cassian (360-435), and Bede (673-735). Even the heretic, Origen (185-354), knew of this reading. The witness of Origen is important, in that it represents a very early date for this reading, in the Greek text.

    In the Book of Judges, chaprer 6, verses 8-10, we read:

    “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I brought you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of bondage; and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land. Also I said to you, “I am the LORD your God; do not fear the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.” But you have not obeyed My voice.’”

    Yet, in chapter 2, verses 1-2, it says:

    "Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept."

    There are some who argue, that for Jesus Christ to be called “Elohim”, or “Theos”, does not mean that He is The Creator God, because these words are used also for created beings in the Holy Bible. This is true, but they are also used 1000’s of times for The One True God!. However, in these passages from 1 Corinthians and Jude, we have clear evidence, when compared to the Old Testament, that Jesus Christ is very clearly called Yahweh. This Great Name of Almighty God, is NEVER used for any created being. It is also very clear, that the Person Who Spoke with Moses in the Burning Bush in Exodus chapter 3, is identified as “And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush” (verse 2). In verse 4 we read of this “Angel of the Lord”, “And when Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush”. Who identifies Himself as: “Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God”. This same “Angel of the Lord”, tells Moses, that He IS, “’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh”, which is, “I AM WHO I AM”.

    Only those who are enemies of the Holy Bible, and the Truth that it Teaches, can deny that It very explicitly Teaches, that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, The Eternal, Uncreated, Unchanging, Creator God.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . So I want to remind you, though you already know this, that the Lord delivered a people out of the land of Egypt yet later destroyed those who did not believe. . . ." Some 87.8% of Greek texts of Jude have "the Lord." Some 2.4% have "Jesus." Another 2.6% have "God" along with P72. And there are some other readings. "Jesus" is the Latin Catholic reading.
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    @SavedByGrace,
    I'm not in disagreement with your post above. You might have added 1 Timothy 3:16, where 97% of the MSS have 'God was manifested in the flesh,' but somehow most versions change it to 'who.'

    However, I think it's important to note the 'threeness' as well as the 'oneness' of the Trinity.
    In the early Church, the reality that there is one God in three Persons (not ‘members’) was safeguarded by speaking of a single divine ‘substance’ shared by Father, Son and Spirit. This substance is simply what God is, the thing that makes Father, Son and Spirit divine without implying three deities.

    The Lord Jesus tells us that He and His father mutually indwell each other (John 14:11; c.f. also John 10:38; 14:10, 20). The technical term for this is perichoresis. This implies both union and distinction between Father and Son. One of the many problems with polytheism is the idea that different deities may make different demands of people and compete with one another as we see in the poems of Homer and Hesiod. Within the Trinity this is avoided, not because the Persons fortuitously happen to agree on most things, but because they must agree, for they are one God. The idea therefore that on the cross the Father inflicts a punishment upon the Son that He is unwilling to bear, or that the Son draws from the Father a forgiveness that He is unwilling to bestow is a non-starter.

    But there is also a distinction between the Persons. Without it, it would be ridiculous to talk of a distinct Father, Son and Spirit at all, and it would be impossible for them to relate to each other as separate Persons as the Scripture teaches they do. But if Son, Father and Spirit are all fully Divine and equal in their possession of all the Divine attributes (e.g. holiness, wisdom, truth etc.), what distinguishes them? The answer is their asymmetric in their relationship with each other. The Father is in a relationship of Fatherhood to the Son and the Son is in a relationship of Sonship to the Father. The Son is everything the Father is, save that He is not the Father, the Spirit is not the Son and so forth.

    It must surely be agreed that God’s actions reflect His nature. He does what is holy because He is holy; what is good because He is good. Therefore God’s nature will be reflected in the actions of each Person of the Trinity and both unity and distinction between the Persons will be reflected in what God does.

    So the actions of the Persons reflect their unity. In John 14:10-11, the Lord Jesus teaches that His works are at the same time His Father’s works and this is grounded in the Perichoretic Union. In John 5:19, He testifies that ‘Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner.’ The fundamental unity in their actions mirrors the fundamental union of their Persons.

    On the other hand, the actions of the Persons reflect their distinctions. The Bible teaches that the Father sent the Son, and that the Son willingly obeyed the Father (John 10:15-18; Philippians 2:5-9). The Son prays to the Father but the Father does not pray to the Son. Father and Son send the Spirit, but the Spirit does not send the Father, but He 'drives' the Son into the wilderness (Mark 1:12). The work of the Trinity in salvation is outlined in Ephesians 1:3-14. The Three work in perfect harmony to accomplish their single goal, but their roles are quite different.

    In order to represent this unity and distinction between the Persons, Augustine taught that the Father’s actions are not without the Son and the Son’s actions not without the Father. That seems to work rather well. Augustine affirmed that while the Persons of the Trinity do not perform the same action in the same way, nevertheless they do not act independently of one another– their respective contributions to any given activity are inseparable.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Each person has their own mind and will, and yet they always are of one mind and Will!
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    thanks for taking the time to write this. I am a firm believer in the Holy Trinity, of Three Persons, Who are distinct, yet equal in every respect. The Father is not "greater" than the Son or Holy Spirit in the Godhead, and the same is true of the Son and Holy Spirit in relation to the Father. The main purpose of this thread, is to show from Scripture, that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and is so also in the Old Testament. This is also true of the Father and Holy Spirit, Who are also Yahweh in the Old Testament. The Deity of the Father is never questioned by any Christian, even the cults agree to this. It is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, Who are seen by some, even those who would call themselves, "Evangelical", Bible-believing, to be a "lesser God", not the same as the Father is. Some of the early Church fathers also erred on this, by giving the Father a "priority" in the Godhead, as He is seen as the First Person in the Trinity.

    You touch upon some of the aspects of Jesus Christ, like praying to the Father, that are during His Incarnation. Even the fact that the Father did send "Jesus", does not in any way "demote" Jesus, as a "lesser" God. The "sending" of Jesus Christ is a mutual agreement with the Persons in the Godhead. In Isaiah 48:16, in context, has Jesus Christ as the Speaker, Who says that "The Lord God" (the Father), sent Him and the Holy Spirit. You will see from the context, that Jesus here is Himself "Yahweh", so no "less" than the Father, Who is also called Yahweh here. The sending of Jesus by the Father is "functional", for the porpose of the salvation of lost sinners, and is not a "lesser" role that Jesus takes on, nor the Father "greater" for sending Jesus.
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we are in full agreement here. Philippians 2:6-7 covers this (I am not a fan of the NIV 2011, but its translation of these particular verses is good).
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and they are 100% WRONG!!!
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. You make claims void of your evidence which you think justifies your error. It must make you feel safe, an argument void of any evidence cannot be refuted.

    My source is the F35 Greek New Testament by Dr. Pickering.
    απαξ τουτο οτι ο κυριος f35 (79.4%) RP,HF,OC,TR,CP || 1235 (4.8%) || ~ 21345 (5.4%) || 1234 θεος (0.6%) || ~ παντα 3451 (3%) [NU] || ~ παντα 351 א (0.4%) || ~ παντα 34 ιησους 1 (0.4%) || ~ παντα 3 ιησους 1 (2%) || ~ παντα 34 θεος 1 (1.2%) || 1 παντα 3 ιησους A,B (0.8%) || 1 παντα 34 θεος (1%) || 1 παντα 3 θεος χριστος P72 || five other variants (1%) [The Alexandrians really had fun with this one.]
     
    #8 37818, May 22, 2021
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the textual evidence is on the OP, I care NOT what Dr Pickering or any other DR has to say! They are WRONG!
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That, I suppose, you think, you know better.
    What we agree on, is that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Yahweh of the OT spoken of in Jude 1:5. What we do not agree on is how that is spoken of in that text.

    ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the LORD, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. . . ."
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The will of the Father is supreme! Power and authority comes from the Father, and has been given to the Son!
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the age-old rank heresy of Subordinationism!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Neither preceded the other being they are both the one and same Yahweh. And Yahweh does not have parts, Deuteronomy 6:4.
    But the subordination does exit, John 5:18-19, John 10:29, John 13:16, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 15:28.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What is this being "In the beginning with God" and again, "The same was in the beginning with God?" And after the Judgement, "the Son also himself be subject unto him?"
    The Greek phrase "with God" occurs 20x in the New Testament and never implies deity. But always referring to be someone other than God.
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    After the close of this Age, when Jesus Christ Returns, and The Kingdom of God is ushered in, The King of this Kingdom is The Holy Trinity. We see from passages like Revelation 11:15, and 22:1, that BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ are JOINT Kings!. "He will reign (singular in the Greek) forever and ever.”, and " the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb" Joint-Reign.
     
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  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    True, though the Father begat the Son, and the Son is begotten. And though Spirit wasn't mentioned in the post, they three are the one and same Yahweh.
    That's right. Yahweh is God in three Persons, not parts.

     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    This is a forced explanation!
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Just accepting the testimony of Scripture concerning our humanly incomprehensible God!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They fail to recognize that this subordination only happened during the time of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus on earth, as he agreed to limit Himself while here on earth!
     
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