Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

[kyredneck]

it clearly shows the ‘woman’

Who is Israel, not the church

Wrong, George. 'The Woman' of Rev 12 is the heavenly Jerusalem, the same woman of Genesis 3:15; Psalms 87; Isaiah 54; Galatians 4:26, represented by her children in this temporal realm.

'The other woman' of Revelation, the earthly Jerusalem, is "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified". "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth".

 

[robycop3]

‘How is the bride a man child? A greater mismatch is hardly conceivable.’

I used to think the same thing and was thrown off by the terminology and had to allow the context of Scripture to override my reasoning on that. How is a male Christian going to be a bride for Christ? Well, we know the Bride consists of both male and female Christians, so it is a matter of terminology. Does all of ‘mankind’ include females? Yes, it does. All of mankind includes the whole human race of both males and females.

‘Also, Christ was caught up unto God”

Christ was not ‘caught up’ but rather received and carried up into ascension. "Caught up" is the same word used for the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Every single mention of Jesus' ascension is described using the words of which indicate a gradual rising (like climbing a mountain), not a quick and violent snatching away as (harpazo). Revelation 12:5 is clearly connected to the Rapture event. Paul was also “caught up” to the third heaven and mentioned again being “caught up” into paradise (II Corinthians 12:2;4). The same word ‘caught up,’ is used all four times in these verses.

Also in the context of this chapter, it clearly shows the ‘woman’ then fleeing into the wilderness for 3 ½ years during the latter half of Daniel’s week, clearly a future even (Rev 12:6). The resurrection and ascension of Christ had already occurred. And yes, Revelation takes us back in time and forward in time as a movie scene, nevertheless, Revelation in general is all about the future.

The main eschatological events will be in this order:

1.) The beast/antichrist comes to power.
2.) The rapture
3.) Great trib
4.) Physical return of Jesus

 

[robycop3]

5 out of 12 is not 12 out of 12. The restoration was in 1948, not 3 BC. The only thing literal is that Jacob had 12 sons. That is literal. At one point in time, (The Flood) 33% of angels rebelled and were put in the pit. They are not released until the 5th Trumpet in Revelation 9. They are released for the first woe. During the 7th Trumpet, they are cast out of Heaven again. Obviously they do not survive past Armageddon. John does not explain where they go the second time. My guess is the Lake of Fire.

No, 1948 saw the lifting of God's punishment of the Jews for murdering Jesus, but He has NOT yet restored Judah and the rest of Israel as one nation yet. And the angels in tartarus won't be released til the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[AustinC]

No, 1948 saw the lifting of God's punishment of the Jews for murdering Jesus, but He has NOT yet restored Judah and the rest of Israel as one nation yet. And the angels in tartarus won't be released til the Great White Throne judgment.

You are providing conjecture not supported in the context of scripture.

 

[robycop3]

You are providing conjecture not supported in the context of scripture.

Yes, it IS. The destruction of the temple & Jerusalem were the "days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of Jews for all the murders of the righteous up til that time. Then, they soon murdered Jesus. The punishment for that, & their continued rejection of Him began in 135-136 AD & culminated in the holocaust.

While most Jews continue to reject Jesus as Messiah, God lifted His punishment anyway, to begin the labor pains of the eschatological events. Remember, normally, labor pains begin slowly & mildly, & become more-frequent & intense as the time for birth approaches.

 

[Michael Hollner]

The main eschatological events will be in this order:

1.) The beast/antichrist comes to power.
2.) The rapture
3.) Great trib
4.) Physical return of Jesus

That is two things we agree on. Except I am not sure if your pre-trib, mid, or post.

 

[Michael Hollner]

He won't, not individually, only as a part of a spiritual body; but his physical body will be male.
As a body, the church is only ever spoken of as female, never male.
Jesus Christ the bridegroom won't be marrying another bridegroom, brother.



His parting is our pattern. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We rise as he rose, and we ascend as he ascended:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Investing "harpazo" with violent snatching while divesting "taken up" or "caught up" from similar force of motion is an arbitrary distinction.
If you think the taken up (Acts 1:9) wasn't "violent snatching" compare Elijah's rapture where he is taken (2Ki.2:10) by a whirlwind (2Ki.2:11) so violent it parted them both asunder (2Ki.2:11). If that ain't a snatching, nothing is.

Enoch's rapture is a figure of our own, for he was a Gentile that was raptured before the judgment.
The Bible describes his rapture as took (Gen.5:24) as it speaks of Christ being taken.



Who is Israel, not the church, as identified by Joseph and Jacob's interpretation of Joseph's dream in Genesis 37.

May I ask your position? I already think your pre-millennium. Do you believe there is a rapture of the Bride? Are you pre, mid, or post-trib? I think it will help if I know your positions. Do you believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after His second coming?

Bro. Mike

 

[George Antonios]

May I ask your position? I already think your pre-millennium. Do you believe there is a rapture of the Bride? Are you pre, mid, or post-trib? I think it will help if I know your positions. Do you believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after His second coming?

Bro. Mike

Yes brother, I'm pre-millennial.
I believe the church is raptured before the whole tribulation.
I also believe there is another rapture of tribulation saints (not of the church).
This is to be distinguished from a split rapture of the church.
The whole church goes before the whole tribulation.
But men who will repent during the tribulation will have their own rapture circa the mid-tribulation point.
The reason there is so much disagreement is precisely because there are two raptures and every has the verses for only their side.

 

[George Antonios]

Wrong, George. 'The Woman' of Rev 12 is the heavenly Jerusalem, the same woman of Genesis 3:15; Psalms 87; Isaiah 54; Galatians 4:26, represented by her children in this temporal realm.

'The other woman' of Revelation, the earthly Jerusalem, is "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified". "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth".

So Christ comes of the church, not the church of Christ. Noted.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, it IS. The destruction of the temple & Jerusalem were the "days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of Jews for all the murders of the righteous up til that time. Then, they soon murdered Jesus. The punishment for that, & their continued rejection of Him began in 135-136 AD & culminated in the holocaust.

While most Jews continue to reject Jesus as Messiah, God lifted His punishment anyway, to begin the labor pains of the eschatological events. Remember, normally, labor pains begin slowly & mildly, & become more-frequent & intense as the time for birth approaches.

Again, you are conjecturing due to a pretext you have created and somehow feel the need to explain.

 

[kyredneck]

So Christ comes of the church, not the church of Christ. Noted.

Wrong, George. Christ was born of The Woman, just as the rest of her seed:

5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12

 

[Michael Hollner]

Yes brother, I'm pre-millennial.
I believe the church is raptured before the whole tribulation.
I also believe there is another rapture of tribulation saints (not of the church).
This is to be distinguished from a split rapture of the church.
The whole church goes before the whole tribulation.
But men who will repent during the tribulation will have their own rapture circa the mid-tribulation point.
The reason there is so much disagreement is precisely because there are two raptures and every has the verses for only their side.

Our positions are very close. I only believe in one rapture at the mid-trib Here is how I see it....

CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF FUTURE EVENTS

1) A great ‘falling away’ from the faith and God’s Word (today)
2) Russia’s Invasion of Israel (the trigger) Ez chaps 38-39
3) The 7-year Tribulation period begins, Daniel’s 70th week.
4) True saints discern the rise of Anti-Christ & False Prophet
5) God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13 arise (Acts 3:19-21)
6) Restoration of Christ’s End-Time Church accomplished.
7) Antichrist’s image set up in temple 3 ½ years into tribulation
8) The “catching away,” Rapture of the Bride, at the “last trump”
9) The “day of the Lord” begins last 3 ½ years of tribulation
10) Day of the Lord “time of the heathen” (Ezek 30:3) last 3 ½
11) Persecution of Saints severe for last 42 months (Rev 13:5-7)
12) God the Father prepares to save His Bride, 1/3 of Israel
13) The battle of Armageddon, Christ returns with his saints
14) The 24-hr “terrible day of the Lord” Joel 2:31; Zep 1:14-17
15) Christ returns to the Mount of Olives, 1/3 of Israel saved
16) The judgment seat of Christ, rewards, and loss of rewards
17) The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
18) The 1000-year reign of Christ begins with his Bride
19) Heaven on earth, new heaven, and new earth
20) Eternity with God and Jesus Christ forever! Amen!

 

[robycop3]

That is two things we agree on. Except I am not sure if your pre-trib, mid, or post.

I am pre-trib. I believe Jesus will call up every saint at the time of the rapture before the trib, but there will be more who will become saints afterward, I. E. the "trib saints".

 

[robycop3]

Again, you are conjecturing due to a pretext you have created and somehow feel the need to explain.

The "pretext" was created by actual events & an understanding of Scripture. I presented facts, not guesswork.

 

[Michael Hollner]

I am pre-trib. I believe Jesus will call up every saint at the time of the rapture before the trib, but there will be more who will become saints afterward, I. E. the "trib saints".

I agree with you on the tribulation saints, but I believe it's mid-trib as the 'last trump' is the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation.

"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" Matt 25:6

 

[asterisktom]

Yes, it IS. The destruction of the temple & Jerusalem were the "days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of Jews for all the murders of the righteous up til that time. Then, they soon murdered Jesus. The punishment for that, & their continued rejection of Him began in 135-136 AD & culminated in the holocaust.

And here we have an extreme example of downplaying of the desolation in AD70. No, RobyCop, the punishment began in the 60s and, as far as the Jewish dispensation was concerned, ended in AD 70 with the destruction of their Temple, the necessary center of their spiritual identity. Their kingdom was taken away and "given to a nation producing its fruit." - Matt. 21:43

What happened in 135-136 AD paled in comparison. Then they lost real estate. In AD 70 they lost much, much more - their covenant relation to God. They lost the very means of acceptable worship.

 

[AustinC]

The "pretext" was created by actual events & an understanding of Scripture. I presented facts, not guesswork.

You provided conjecture by taking events of your choosing and shoving them into the Bible to make your narrative fit.
Tell me where 1948 is shown in scripture as a definite fulfillment of prophecy. You cannot find it. You have to force it into a scripture passage. As I read the pretrib theories I am again shown how much juggling and conjecture must be done to actually believe the theory. I would be interested to see pretrib folks tell our persecuted brothers and sisters that they are not going through tribulation as they are being martyred for the faith. Pretrib rapture theory is such a western Christian world concoction to avoid the fear of dying for one's faith.

 

[robycop3]

I agree with you on the tribulation saints, but I believe it's mid-trib as the 'last trump' is the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation.

"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" Matt 25:6

God said He'd keep His Church from the "hour of trial" that shall come upon the whole earth.

Right now, it's be almost impossible to institute the "mark of the beast", which will likely be some sorta microchip. With all the Christians gone, the opposition will be nil.

 

[robycop3]

And here we have an extreme example of downplaying of the desolation in AD70. No, RobyCop, the punishment began in the 60s and, as far as the Jewish dispensation was concerned, ended in AD 70 with the destruction of their Temple, the necessary center of their spiritual identity. Their kingdom was taken away and "given to a nation producing its fruit." - Matt. 21:43

What happened in 135-136 AD paled in comparison. Then they lost real estate. In AD 70 they lost much, much more - their covenant relation to God. They lost the very means of acceptable worship.

Jesus proclaimed the "days of vengeance" upon THAT generation, & that's what the Roman sacking was. When Hadrian booted the Jews from their land, they lost their homes, businesses & incomes, & most of their possessions, & were the subject of persecution & hatred wherever they went. That scorn kept up for over 1800 years, culminating in the holocaust, which was much-worse than the Jerusalem event.

There were plenty of Christian Jews that survived Jerusalem as well as "orthodox" Jews. They soon built synagogues, but the Romans wouldn't let them build a new temple, as they considered the old one to have been a seat of rebellion.

What they couldn't do any more was sacrifice animals or have an official priesthood. But they still followed the Old Covenant much as possible, same as they do now.

 

[robycop3]

You provided conjecture by taking events of your choosing and shoving them into the Bible to make your narrative fit.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

Tell me where 1948 is shown in scripture as a definite fulfillment of prophecy.You cannot find it. You have to force it into a scripture passage.

Show us where God put an actual date upon ANY prophecy besides saying "Such-n-such will happen within a year", etc. And the events are clear. When the nazis fell, the Jews soon began taking revenge upon concentration camp guards, etc. And when a coalition of Moslem nations attacked the newly-minted nation of Israel in 1948, the Jews kicked their cans, & have been growing stronger ever since. God didn't actually declare punishment on the Jews for rejecting & murdering Jesus, but there can be no denying it occurred. There was no hint of what that punishment would be, how long it'd last, & when it'd end. While I believe He isn't punishing Judah as a whole any more, the individual Jews who die unsaved will face the same penalty as any other who dies unsaved.

As I read the pretrib theories I am again shown how much juggling and conjecture must be done to actually believe the theory. I would be interested to see pretrib folks tell our persecuted brothers and sisters that they are not going through tribulation as they are being martyred for the faith. Pretrib rapture theory is such a western Christian world concoction to avoid the fear of dying for one's faith.

Doesn't take much at all! The trib will hit the WHOLE WORLD, & some of its details are given in Revelation.

And God said He'd keep His Church from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world.