Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

[George Antonios]

I agree with you on the tribulation saints, but I believe it's mid-trib as the 'last trump' is the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation.

"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" Matt 25:6

Paul said last trump not last trumpet.
A trump is a sound of a trumpet.
At the resurrection/rapture of the church (1Co.15), the first trump raises the dead, the second and last trump changes the living and catches up both groups to meet the Lord.
That is not all the same thing as the last of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.
An excellent example of how even adding two letters ("et") to a word ("trump") changes doctrine

 

[George Antonios]

Our positions are very close. I only believe in one rapture at the mid-trib Here is how I see it....

CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF FUTURE EVENTS

1) A great ‘falling away’ from the faith and God’s Word (today)
2) Russia’s Invasion of Israel (the trigger) Ez chaps 38-39
3) The 7-year Tribulation period begins, Daniel’s 70th week.
4) True saints discern the rise of Anti-Christ & False Prophet
5) God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13 arise (Acts 3:19-21)
6) Restoration of Christ’s End-Time Church accomplished.
7) Antichrist’s image set up in temple 3 ½ years into tribulation
8) The “catching away,” Rapture of the Bride, at the “last trump”
9) The “day of the Lord” begins last 3 ½ years of tribulation
10) Day of the Lord “time of the heathen” (Ezek 30:3) last 3 ½
11) Persecution of Saints severe for last 42 months (Rev 13:5-7)
12) God the Father prepares to save His Bride, 1/3 of Israel
13) The battle of Armageddon, Christ returns with his saints
14) The 24-hr “terrible day of the Lord” Joel 2:31; Zep 1:14-17
15) Christ returns to the Mount of Olives, 1/3 of Israel saved
16) The judgment seat of Christ, rewards, and loss of rewards
17) The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
18) The 1000-year reign of Christ begins with his Bride
19) Heaven on earth, new heaven, and new earth
20) Eternity with God and Jesus Christ forever! Amen!

Thank you for listing that

 

[AustinC]

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

Show us where God put an actual date upon ANY prophecy besides saying "Such-n-such will happen within a year", etc. And the events are clear. When the nazis fell, the Jews soon began taking revenge upon concentration camp guards, etc. And when a coalition of Moslem nations attacked the newly-minted nation of Israel in 1948, the Jews kicked their cans, & have been growing stronger ever since. God didn't actually declare punishment on the Jews for rejecting & murdering Jesus, but there can be no denying it occurred. There was no hint of what that punishment would be, how long it'd last, & when it'd end. While I believe He isn't punishing Judah as a whole any more, the individual Jews who die unsaved will face the same penalty as any other who dies unsaved.



Doesn't take much at all! The trib will hit the WHOLE WORLD, & some of its details are given in Revelation.

And God said He'd keep His Church from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world.

I know you have convinced yourself that your theory is correct. Unfortunately, the Bible does not support your theory. In fact, though I do not hold to it, the preterist view has a stronger support than the pretrib view.

 

[percho]

Wrong, George. Christ was born of The Woman, just as the rest of her seed:

5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12

Rev 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Does that verse say anything relative to the type of woman to whom this man child is being brought forth?

A bringing forth associated with pain.

Now else where in the word of God is a man child brought forth, yet brought forth before travail, before pain, as in having birth-pangs, loosed, What type of woman would bring about that birth?

 

[asterisktom]

Rev 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Does that verse say anything relative to the type of woman to whom this man child is being brought forth?

A bringing forth associated with pain.

Now else where in the word of God is a man child brought forth, yet brought forth before travail, before pain, as in having birth-pangs, loosed, What type of woman would bring about that birth?

Good observation.

 

[robycop3]

I know you have convinced yourself that your theory is correct. Unfortunately, the Bible does not support your theory. In fact, though I do not hold to it, the preterist view has a stronger support than the pretrib view.

But it IS correct. I made my theory from Scripture. However, the pret view is false, as history proves.

 

[atpollard]

Could you please tell how 1/3 of the stars of heaven (whether Jews or angels) fell from heaven to earth, and were stamped by the devil (Daniel 8:10) around the birth of Christ (Rev.12:4)?

Probably not the "input" you are looking for, but these sorts of symbolic verses (that I have no real clue about) are why I avoid ESCHATOLOGY discussions. After reading 5 pages of "enlightenment", I am more committed to avoidance than ever.

I think mixing and matching Revelation and Daniel double your chances of ending up in the "rough" (golfing metaphor).
The Devil took 1/3 of the angels with him in his rebellion seems the simplest understanding of that part of Revelation 12:4.
Beyond that ... [shrug] ... I'dunno.

 

[AustinC]

But it IS correct. I made my theory from Scripture. However, the pret view is false, as history proves.

No you didn't. You grabbed "signs of your time" and then attempted to find Bible verses that fit with your signs of the time. That's putting the cart before the horse and demanding the Bible fit your theory rather than letting the Bible say what it says, outside of your theory.
In Matthew 24 we read that Jesus tells us not to sweat the exact dates, but simply know that no one knows when he will return. When that happens, one person will remain in Jesus kingdom while the other will be taken away to destruction. There is no rapture before tribulation happens.

 

[AustinC]

Probably not the "input" you are looking for, but these sorts of symbolic verses (that I have no real clue about) are why I avoid ESCHATOLOGY discussions. After reading 5 pages of "enlightenment", I am more committed to avoidance than ever.

I think mixing and matching Revelation and Daniel double your chances of ending up in the "rough" (golfing metaphor).
The Devil took 1/3 of the angels with him in his rebellion seems the simplest understanding of that part of Revelation 12:4.
Beyond that ... [shrug] ... I'dunno.

atpollard, I have been enjoying listening to Eric Alexander's sermons on Revelation. He is a Scottish pastor and his sermons are from the 1990s.
Search "Tapes from Scotland", then go to catalogue. From there, pick Eric Alexander to see all the sermons. There are many other sermons from many pastors, including Sinclair Ferguson. I have been blessed in listening. I think you would enjoy them.
Tapes From Scotland - Catalogue

 

[thomas15]

Without covenant theology the modern preterist movement ceases to exist. A good question to ask is how did Jehovah divorce the seed of the sons of Abraham, allow the second person of the Godhead to marry the Church and give the promises given to Israel to the another, all without violating the OT law and NT passages such as Matt 5:31-32 and Mark 10:2-12?

Ignore the concept of biblical precepts, use allegory when necessary and a literal view when convenient. Ignore written history and imply that those who take a literal view of things are uninformed. The Blessed Hope of the return of Jesus becomes past history, missed by most, participating in the Lord's Supper is acceptable but a future return of Temple Sacrifices in the future is not.

 

[asterisktom]

"Without covenant theology the modern preterist movement ceases to exist."

Please explain. I know several preterists who have no use for Covenant Theology. And, if by that term you mean a covenant going all the way back to Adam, that includes me.

 

[thomas15]

"Without covenant theology the modern preterist movement ceases to exist."

Please explain. I know several preterists who have no use for Covenant Theology. And, if by that term you mean a covenant going all the way back to Adam, that includes me.

Here is some allegory for you. You and your friends may hate Interstate Highway system but if they want to go from the east coast to west by automobile, they will, in spite of their unhappiness, take the roadway they despise.

 

[asterisktom]

Here is some allegory for you. You and your friends may hate Interstate Highway system but if they want to go from the east coast to west by automobile, they will, in spite of their unhappiness, take the roadway they despise.

No, we get off the wretched highway and take the country roads. Takes longer, more enjoyable. Then we decide to go down to Mexico instead.

There. Now what about my question?

 

[robycop3]

No you didn't. You grabbed "signs of your time" and then attempted to find Bible verses that fit with your signs of the time. That's putting the cart before the horse and demanding the Bible fit your theory rather than letting the Bible say what it says, outside of your theory.
In Matthew 24 we read that Jesus tells us not to sweat the exact dates, but simply know that no one knows when he will return. When that happens, one person will remain in Jesus kingdom while the other will be taken away to destruction. There is no rapture before tribulation happens.

God said He will keep His Church from the hour of trial that'll come upon the whole world, which is the trib. Now, if He were to leave it here, but physically protect it from the trib, it'd grow super-quickly, but from direct evidence, not faith. That would create two classes of Christians, while Scripture says all Christians are alike.

The beast will have an explanation for millions of people vanishing, which most of the world will accept. However, a few will realize what's happened, & come to Jesus. These will be the trib saints.

 

[AustinC]

God said He will keep His Church from the hour of trial that'll come upon the whole world, which is the trib. Now, if He were to leave it here, but physically protect it from the trib, it'd grow super-quickly, but from direct evidence, not faith. That would create two classes of Christians, while Scripture says all Christians are alike.

The beast will have an explanation for millions of people vanishing, which most of the world will accept. However, a few will realize what's happened, & come to Jesus. These will be the trib saints.

No, God did not say he will keep us from tribulation. "In this world you will have many troubles." Many will be martyred and killed in tribulation as we have already witnessed over the past 2000 years. The end will come at any moment, Jesus will return and one will be kept as the redeemed while the other will be removed unto damnation. (Matthew 24)

 

[Yeshua1]

No, God did not say he will keep us from tribulation. "In this world you will have many troubles." Many will be martyred and killed in tribulation as we have already witnessed over the past 2000 years. The end will come at any moment, Jesus will return and one will be kept as the redeemed while the other will be removed unto damnation. (Matthew 24)

Kept from The Great Tribulation of end days!

 

[thomas15]

No, we get off the wretched highway and take the country roads. Takes longer, more enjoyable. Then we decide to go down to Mexico instead.

There. Now what about my question?

So, if allegory is applied then there is more than one path to the promised land?

 

[AustinC]

Kept from The Great Tribulation of end days!

We, the saints, go through the tribulation. For some things the elect are spared.

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

[Yeshua1]

We, the saints, go through the tribulation. For some things the elect are spared.

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Not in that Great tribulation as of yet though!

 

[AustinC]

Not in that Great tribulation as of yet though!

We cannot say the tribulation is not here, but we can say the elect will go through the tribulation.

Matthew 24:22-24,26-31,36-44

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.