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Featured Reformed V Biblical Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jun 16, 2021.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I posted many versions to show it clearly, yet you still do not get it.
     
    #101 Iconoclast, Jun 18, 2021
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Ask God for help with your CDS.
     
    #102 kyredneck, Jun 18, 2021
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I like the way you SELECT portions from Romans 9 to suit your BIASED theology! :eek:

    If you were to deal with this honestly, then you will see 2 things here. Firstly, note what Paul actually does say, and NOT what you WANT him to says. Verse 12 is VERY CLEAR to anyone who is not blinded by Calvinistic/Reformed twisting, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger". It is SERVING of the elder to the younger, that is meant, and has NOTHING to do with salvation, as some would FORCE the Bible to say! Secondly WHY did you omit verse 22??? "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". WHY does God ENDURE WITH MUCH LONGSUFFERING", those who are lost and going to hell??? The ONLY honest answer is found in the correct reading of 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward YOU (the mockers, and false teaches in 2:1!!!), not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance".

    Before YOU jump on others, look hard at YOURSELF!
     
    #103 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    because you post NONSENSE! To FORCE the Bible to support your TWISTED theology!
     
    #104 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...maybe, but both apply to the Church of Christ, where neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but the Israel of God.

    10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: 2 Pe 1
     
    #105 kyredneck, Jun 18, 2021
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NOT saved until received Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that they will do so is based upon election and predestination of God, and by them hearing and responding to the Gospel
     
    #106 Yeshua1, Jun 18, 2021
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Thank you. Here's some more SELECTION that helps to crystalize the context of Romans 9:

    6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (see Romans 2:28-29; Philippians 3:3)
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. (see Galatians 4:28)
    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, (see Romans 9:11)
    24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9 (see Galatians 6:15)
     
    #107 kyredneck, Jun 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
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  8. Stratton7

    Stratton7 Member

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    I agree as this means God would know beforehand that he was going to create human beings that he planned on throwing into hell to suffer. Why even create in the first place if the intention is for some to suffer. How awful...
    God gave us a choice as He did with Adam and Eve in the garden as to not eat of the fruit.
    There’s also a choice in love or salvation. If God did not allow choice then there can’t truly be love and we’re all a bunch of robots.
     
    #108 Stratton7, Jun 18, 2021
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this means that regardless of whether these "elect" actually "received Jesus as Lord and Savior", or not, they are guaranteed salvation on the basis for their "election", which is before Creation. This still makes their need to be "saved", pointless!
     
    #109 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, rather confirms that they will somehow get the Gospel message in order to get saved!
     
    #110 Yeshua1, Jun 18, 2021
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9-11 deals with the priority of the Jewish people, and their "rejection" by God, for the "acceptance" of the Gentiles. The many references to the OT are dealing with this ALONE. The Reformed have hijacked these chapters to make them teach "election to salvation" for the "elect", which they do NOT teach!
     
    #111 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    WHY? they are CHOSEN for salvation BEFORE the Creation of the world. In which case their "believing" matters ZERO!
     
    #112 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, as they still must receive Jesus as Lord to get saved!
     
    #113 Yeshua1, Jun 18, 2021
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so they have to DO something? which RECEIVING Jesus as Lord is!
     
    #114 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The conclusion of a man who refuses to cede control over to God...
     
    #115 AustinC, Jun 18, 2021
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    They are made alive by God's grace, apart from works. They believe precisely because they have been made alive, heard the master and been given faith to believe. This is Bible 101, oozing from all parts of God's redemptive plan.
     
    #116 AustinC, Jun 18, 2021
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  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

    Surely the vessels of mercy feel as if they've been 'saved' from being a vessel fitted unto destruction.

    Note, these are 'vessels fitted unto destruction', NOT 'vessels fitted unto service'.
     
    #117 kyredneck, Jun 18, 2021
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  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing here about eternal destruction or eternal life. ἀπώλεια, simply means, "loss"; and, δόξα, "honour". This is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:20-21, "Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work."
     
    #118 SavedByGrace, Jun 18, 2021
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    If you are intending to use this verse as a salvation verse, then you have just preached salvation by works.
    Do you think the context of 2 Timothy lends itself to salvation by works?
     
    #119 AustinC, Jun 18, 2021
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  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...compare with:

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9
     
    #120 kyredneck, Jun 18, 2021
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