Reformed V Biblical Salvation

[Iconoclast]

You must be a version switcher. If one version doesn't say it the way you like it, you quote from a different version.. No wonder you are so mixed up.
MB

I posted many versions to show it clearly, yet you still do not get it.

 

[kyredneck]

Still preaching your philosophies. The old testament doesn't say Gentiles are elect either.. Being called and elect are two different things.
You still haven't proven Gentiles are elect. You just assume which is what you do best.
MB

Ask God for help with your CDS.

 

[SavedByGrace]

MB, your extreme case of Calvinist Derangement Syndrome (CDS) totally blinds you to basic foundational truths of the Christian religion.

Ask God for help with your CDS.

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

I like the way you SELECT portions from Romans 9 to suit your BIASED theology!

If you were to deal with this honestly, then you will see 2 things here. Firstly, note what Paul actually does say, and NOT what you WANT him to says. Verse 12 is VERY CLEAR to anyone who is not blinded by Calvinistic/Reformed twisting, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger". It is SERVING of the elder to the younger, that is meant, and has NOTHING to do with salvation, as some would FORCE the Bible to say! Secondly WHY did you omit verse 22??? "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". WHY does God ENDURE WITH MUCH LONGSUFFERING", those who are lost and going to hell??? The ONLY honest answer is found in the correct reading of 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward YOU (the mockers, and false teaches in 2:1!!!), not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance".

Before YOU jump on others, look hard at YOURSELF!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I posted many versions to show it clearly, yet you still do not get it.

because you post NONSENSE! To FORCE the Bible to support your TWISTED theology!

 

[kyredneck]

Being called and elect are two different things.

...maybe, but both apply to the Church of Christ, where neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but the Israel of God.

10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: 2 Pe 1

 

[Yeshua1]

so WHY does the elect need to hear the Gospel and believe, if they are SAVED in eternity past? This is utter nonsense!!!

NOT saved until received Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that they will do so is based upon election and predestination of God, and by them hearing and responding to the Gospel

 

[kyredneck]

I like the way you SELECT portions from Romans 9

Thank you. Here's some more SELECTION that helps to crystalize the context of Romans 9:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (see Romans 2:28-29; Philippians 3:3)
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. (see Galatians 4:28)
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, (see Romans 9:11)
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9 (see Galatians 6:15)

 

[Stratton7]

But WHY would God even BOTHER to WARN those He is going to send to HELL???

I agree as this means God would know beforehand that he was going to create human beings that he planned on throwing into hell to suffer. Why even create in the first place if the intention is for some to suffer. How awful...
God gave us a choice as He did with Adam and Eve in the garden as to not eat of the fruit.
There’s also a choice in love or salvation. If God did not allow choice then there can’t truly be love and we’re all a bunch of robots.

 

[SavedByGrace]

NOT saved until received Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that they will do so is based upon election and predestination of God, and by them hearing and responding to the Gospel

this means that regardless of whether these "elect" actually "received Jesus as Lord and Savior", or not, they are guaranteed salvation on the basis for their "election", which is before Creation. This still makes their need to be "saved", pointless!

 

[Yeshua1]

this means that regardless of whether these "elect" actually "received Jesus as Lord and Savior", or not, they are guaranteed salvation on the basis for their "election", which is before Creation. This still makes their need to be "saved", pointless!

No, rather confirms that they will somehow get the Gospel message in order to get saved!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thank you. Here's some more SELECTION that helps to crystalize the context of Romans 9:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (see Romans 2:28-29; Philippians 3:3)
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. (see Galatians 4:28)
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, (see Romans 9:11)
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9 (see Galatians 6:15)

Romans 9-11 deals with the priority of the Jewish people, and their "rejection" by God, for the "acceptance" of the Gentiles. The many references to the OT are dealing with this ALONE. The Reformed have hijacked these chapters to make them teach "election to salvation" for the "elect", which they do NOT teach!

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, rather confirms that they will somehow get the Gospel message in order to get saved!

WHY? they are CHOSEN for salvation BEFORE the Creation of the world. In which case their "believing" matters ZERO!

 

[Yeshua1]

WHY? they are CHOSEN for salvation BEFORE the Creation of the world. In which case their "believing" matters ZERO!

No, as they still must receive Jesus as Lord to get saved!

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, as they still must receive Jesus as Lord to get saved!

so they have to DO something? which RECEIVING Jesus as Lord is!

 

[AustinC]

WHY? they are CHOSEN for salvation BEFORE the Creation of the world. In which case their "believing" matters ZERO!

The conclusion of a man who refuses to cede control over to God...

 

[AustinC]

so they have to DO something? which RECEIVING Jesus as Lord is!

They are made alive by God's grace, apart from works. They believe precisely because they have been made alive, heard the master and been given faith to believe. This is Bible 101, oozing from all parts of God's redemptive plan.

 

[kyredneck]

"It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger". It is SERVING of the elder to the younger, that is meant, and has NOTHING to do with salvation

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

Surely the vessels of mercy feel as if they've been 'saved' from being a vessel fitted unto destruction.

Note, these are 'vessels fitted unto destruction', NOT 'vessels fitted unto service'.

 

[SavedByGrace]

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

Surely the vessels of mercy feel as if they've been 'saved' from being a vessel fitted unto destruction.

Note, these are 'vessels fitted unto destruction', NOT 'vessels fitted unto service'.

There is nothing here about eternal destruction or eternal life. ἀπώλεια, simply means, "loss"; and, δόξα, "honour". This is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:20-21, "Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work."

 

[AustinC]

There is nothing here about eternal destruction or eternal life. ἀπώλεια, simply means, "loss"; and, δόξα, "honour". This is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:20-21, "Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work."

If you are intending to use this verse as a salvation verse, then you have just preached salvation by works.
Do you think the context of 2 Timothy lends itself to salvation by works?

 

[kyredneck]

if anyone cleanses himself

...compare with:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9