1 Cor. 1:18-"are saved" or "are being saved"?

[robycop3]

1 Cor. 1:18, KJV- For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 1:18, NKJV-For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There's a long argument over which is the most-correct. KJVOs argue the MV reading indicates that salvation is a process, while it's actually instantaneous, while Freedom Readers say the Greek words involved here are continuous participles, indicating an ongoing process. I should like to hear from some of you who are learned in Koine Greek & have access to some manuscripts about which is the more-correct.

Please, let's not turn this into another KJVO-Freedom Reader argument.

 

[Baptist4life]

Question....you live in southeast Ohio, so the times you post are when church is meeting in your area. Why aren't you ever in church on Sunday mornings? Always wondered about that. Do you not attend church?

 

[37818]

Interesting question.
That Greek word and in this gramatical form only occurs twice in our New Testament.
σωζομενοις. 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 2 Corinthians 2:15
1 Corinthians 1:18, KJV, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
2 Corinthians 2:15, KJV, "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:"

And verbs in that gramatical form occurs only 8 times in our New Testament.
The other 6 references, different words:

Acts 28:10, KJV, "Who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary."

2 Thessalonians 1:7, KJV, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,"
1 Timothy 5:10, KJV, "Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work."

Hebrews 2:18, KJV, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

Hebrews 5:2, KJV, "Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity."

1 Peter 2:14, KJV, "Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well."

Just looking at these texts, I get the impression of a "state" not a "process."

 

[37818]

I would be interested in hearing from @John of Japan, @Van and @SavedByGrace on this question. And of course anyone else.

 

[robycop3]

Question....you live in southeast Ohio, so the times you post are when church is meeting in your area. Why aren't you ever in church on Sunday mornings? Always wondered about that. Do you not attend church?

OF COURSE I do, usually 0930 to1100.

Now, do you have anything to say about the subject of this thread?

 

[Van]

I would be interested in hearing from @John of Japan, @Van and @SavedByGrace on this question. And of course anyone else.

The word in these two verses would be literally translated as "ones being saved." The tense is present, not something in the past, and it is in the passive voice, thus those being saved are being acted upon, rather than them taking any part of the action.

 

[37818]

The word in these two verses would be literally translated as "ones being saved." The tense is present, not something in the past, and it is in the passive voice, thus those being saved are being acted upon, rather than them taking any part of the action.

So do you understand ". . . being saved" as a state or a process in those two references? There are 6 different Greek words used in that part of speech in our New Testament.

 

[Van]

So do you understand ". . . being saved" as a state or a process in those two references? There are 6 different Greek words used in that part of speech in our New Testament.

I am addressing the TWO words, one in each of the two verses cited. Since it is a present action, I see no indication the action is part of a process before or beyond the present.

As far as my beliefs:
Positional Sanctification, God placing a person into Christ results in them being saved. I think this is the action being performed by God in 1 Corinthians 1:18, and 2 Corinthians 2:15. But do not overlook that their understanding of the gospel, their being drawn, their both hearing and learning and God crediting their faith as righteousness came before the action presented in the verses.

We start out condemned because of unbelief.
God through His witnesses reveals the gospel.
We (but certainly not all) hear and learn, being drawn (attracted by His lovingkindness toward us).
God credits (or not) our faith as righteousness.
God alone transfers us out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The tense of the verbs is Present, which in Greek usually expresses continuity. 'Are perishing,' 'are being saved' would seem to be correct.
Some people may ask if our salvation is not a one-off event. My understanding is that salvation is three-fold. We have been saved by the precious blood of Christ; we are being saved as the Holy Spirit works progressively in our lives and we are changed from glory into glory (2 Corinthians 3:18), and we shall be saved at the Last Day when the books are opened and our names found within them.

I don't believe that this has anything to do with the Greek manuscripts. In 1 Cor. 1:18, they are all in agreement.

 

[Baptist4life]

OF COURSE I do, usually 0930 to1100.

Now, do you have anything to say about the subject of this thread?

Yea....you're trolling again.

 

[robycop3]

Yea....you're trolling again.

Then simply don't respond, or report it as trolling.

 

[robycop3]

The tense of the verbs is Present, which in Greek usually expresses continuity. 'Are perishing,' 'are being saved' would seem to be correct.
Some people may ask if our salvation is not a one-off event. My understanding is that salvation is three-fold. We have been saved by the precious blood of Christ; we are being saved as the Holy Spirit works progressively in our lives and we are changed from glory into glory (2 Corinthians 3:18), and we shall be saved at the Last Day when the books are opened and our names found within them.

I don't believe that this has anything to do with the Greek manuscripts. In 1 Cor. 1:18, they are all in agreement.

I viewed it as the fact that not every Corinthian who read Paul's letter was saved, but more were being saved as time passed.

Same for those who are perishing. Anyone not saved & still living is on the way to perishing, but hasn't yet perished, just as some who read or heard Paul's letter weren't saved when they first knew its words, but were saved later.

 

[rlvaughn]

Looking at past translations of this verse, I find the following interesting. The English Revised Version of 1881/1885 changed to are perishing/are being saved, but the American Standard Version 1901 revision of the RV took it back to that perish/are saved. Then the 1946/1952 RSV returns to the RV style.

For the word of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God.

For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[robycop3]

Looking at past translations of this verse, I find the following interesting. The English Revised Version of 1881/1885 changed to are perishing/are being saved, but the American Standard Version 1901 revision of the RV took it back to that perish/are saved. Then the 1946/1952 RSV returns to the RV style.

Knowing very little about Koine Greek, I can't begin to guess why they flipped.

Also interesting is that the NKJV has "are perishing, are saved".

 

[rlvaughn]

I should like to hear from some of you who are learned in Koine Greek & have access to some manuscripts about which is the more-correct.

I haven't checked all that might be checked, but I don't think this is a manuscript or text issue, but a translation decision. Perhaps some manuscript has a variant reading, but the compiled Greek texts that I have access to all have the same reading.

TR1550: ο λογος γαρ ο του σταυρου τοις μεν απολλυμενοις μωρια εστιν τοις δε σωζομενοις ημιν δυναμις θεου εστιν
WHNU: ο λογος γαρ ο του σταυρου τοις μεν απολλυμενοις μωρια εστιν τοις δε σωζομενοις ημιν δυναμις θεου εστιν
TR1894: ο λογος γαρ ο του σταυρου τοις μεν απολλυμενοις μωρια εστιν τοις δε σωζομενοις ημιν δυναμις θεου εστιν
SBLGNT: Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.
THGNT: Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σωζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.
NA26UB3: Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.

 

[rlvaughn]

The tense of the verbs is Present, which in Greek usually expresses continuity. 'Are perishing,' 'are being saved' would seem to be correct.

In relation to the present tense, I found this comment from S. Lewis Johnson, in the Wycliffe Bible Commentary.

Perish and saved (present tenses, but frequentative, rather than durative) vividly portray the constant stream of the lost toppling into eternity, without Christ, and the fewer, but still constant, stream of the saved entering the door of eternal fellowship with Christ. (1 Corinthians commentary by S. Lewis Johnson, in Wycliffe Bible Commentary)

 

[SavedByGrace]

τοις μεν απολλυμενοις, is the present middle participle, which is "those who are perishing", where the "present" denotes an ongoing process, "on the way to destructiuon". Does not allow for annihilation. The present tense is also used in Jude 7, "πρόκεινται δεῖγμα πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι", for Sodom and Gomorrah, who were destroyed 1000's of years before, but are still "suffering".

τοις σωζομενοις ημιν, same as above, which can mean as "in the process of salvation". The salvation of believers is completed, when the sinner first "repents and believes", as Jesus says in John 5:24, "αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην", where the prefect active indicative is used, "has already passed" from death to life. Though we are told to "work out our salvation" (Phil. 2.12), κατεργάζεσθε, is the present middle (deponent) imperative plural, which must be a "joint effort" with the Lord, as verse 13 says, "For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure"

 

[John of Japan]

I would be interested in hearing from @John of Japan, @Van and @SavedByGrace on this question. And of course anyone else.

Both "perishing and "saved" are present passive participles. The question at hand is of verbal aspect. Using David Alan Black's terminology (other scholars use other terms for the same things), the participles can be either imperfective (continued action) or aoristic (looking at the action as a whole. So, neither the KJV nor the NKJV are wrong. Context is the key, including the wider context of the whole NT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Both "perishing and "saved" are present passive participles. The question at hand is of verbal aspect. Using David Alan Black's terminology (other scholars use other terms for the same things), the participles can be either imperfective (continued action) or aoristic (looking at the action as a whole. So, neither the KJV nor the NKJV are wrong. Context is the key, including the wider context of the whole NT.

So this would be a purely translation choice here then?

 

[John of Japan]

So this would be a purely translation choice here then?

IMO, yes.