Southern Baptist Traditionalism/Provisionism Thoughts and Comments

[Jem Simmo]

After years of working through my Soteriology and pouring over the scriptures I have come to the place that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism fully encompass the biblical view. They both have things I disagree with. That being said I searched and searched for a biblical sound doctrine that was Bible first theology second.

I found it with Southern Baptist Traditionalism through variousness sources mainly Soteriology 101 Podcast by Dr Leighton Flowers and The book Anyone can be Saved by Dr Adam Harwood & Dr Steve Lemke and several other theologians.

I have found that Traditionalism is far more cohesive with other doctrines like Dispensationlism and 7 Day Creationism than that of Calvinism and Arminianism.

If you have always felt that you had only two options. I challenge you to look into this and open hearted.

 

[Benjamin]

After years of working through my Soteriology and pouring over the scriptures I have come to the place that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism fully encompass the biblical view. They both have things I disagree with.

Hey Jem, welcome to the club!

I found it with Southern Baptist Traditionalism through variousness sources mainly Soteriology 101 Podcast by Dr Leighton Flowers

FYI, Leighton Flowers used to be an active member here so many of us are familiar with him.

I have found that Traditionalism is far more cohesive with other doctrines like Dispensationlism and 7 Day Creationism than that of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Well, you're getting off of soteriology here and I'm not sure "Dispensationalism" and 7 Day Creationism/Young Earth Creation has to do with it other than I'd say my views of Progressive Covenant Theology lines up quite well with my views which reject Determinism and uphold Human Volition.

Welcome to the board!

 

[Revmitchell]

After years of working through my Soteriology and pouring over the scriptures I have come to the place that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism fully encompass the biblical view. They both have things I disagree with. That being said I searched and searched for a biblical sound doctrine that was Bible first theology second.

I found it with Southern Baptist Traditionalism through variousness sources mainly Soteriology 101 Podcast by Dr Leighton Flowers and The book Anyone can be Saved by Dr Adam Harwood & Dr Steve Lemke and several other theologians.

I have found that Traditionalism is far more cohesive with other doctrines like Dispensationlism and 7 Day Creationism than that of Calvinism and Arminianism.

If you have always felt that you had only two options. I challenge you to look into this and open hearted.

Hardly anyone feels there are only such choices. In fact the average church member does not even know those names. Such ideas are mainly promoted by calvies. I am myself a traditionalist but really such names are only helpful on boards. From day to day they mean nothing. Just search the scriptures, know the individual doctrines and avoid following a system.

 

[Dave G]

Just search the scriptures, know the individual doctrines and avoid following a system.

I agree most wholeheartedly, Mark.

 

[rsr]

Welcome. The so-called "Traditional" soteriology has been debated at length here, although "Traditional" is something of a misnomer; it is really a fairly recent innovation, dating to about the middle of the last century.

"Modern" Southern Baptist soteriology probably would be a more apt description. It really is more akin to four-point Arminianism, and its formulation has troubling elements in its exposition of the drawing of the Spirit, essentially substituting an offer of the Gospel for the prevenient grace of the Arminians and irresistible grace of the Calvinists. In this, it seems to me, that "Traditional" soteriology is closer to Campbellism than to historic Baptist soteriology of any stripe.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Leighton Flowers insists that John 6:37-40 and John 15:16 apply to the original apostles only, while the New Hampshire Confession clearly says otherwise.

We believe that election is the eternal purpose of God, according to which he graciously regenerates, sanctifies, and saves sinners; that being perfectly consistent with the free agency of man, it comprehends all the means in connection with the end; that it is a most glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, being infinitely free, wise, holy and unchangeable; that it utterly excludes boasting, and promotes humility, love, prayer, praise, trust in God, and active imitation of his free mercy; that it encourages the use of means in the highest degree; that it may be ascertained by its effects in all who truly believe the gospel, that it is the foundation of Christian assurance; and that to ascertain it with regard to ourselves demands and deserves the utmost diligence.

II Tim. 1:8-9; Eph. 1:3-14; I Peter 1:1-2; Rom. 11:5-6; John 15;16; I John 4:19; II Thess. 2:13-14; Acts 13:48; John 10:16; Matt. 20:16; Acts 15:14; Ex. 33:18-19; Matt. 20:15; Eph. 1:11; Rom. 9:23-24; Jer. 31:3; Rom.11:28-29; James 1:17-18; II Tim.1:9; Rom. 11:32-36; I Cor. 1:26-31; Rom.3:27; Rom. 4:16; Col.3:12; I Cor. 3:5-7; I Cor. 15:10; I Peter 5:10; Acts 1:24; I Thess. 2:13; I Peter 2:9; Luke 18:7; John 15:16; I Thess. 2:12; II Tim. 2:10; I Cor. 9:22; Rom. 8:28-30; John 6:37-40; I Thess 1:4-10; Isa. 42:16; Rom. 11:29; II Peter 1:10-11; Phil. 3:12; Heb. 6:11
http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/the-new-hampshire-confession-of-faith.pdf

Dr. Flowers is able to get away with this because of how ignorant many Baptists are of their own history. It's shameless how Flowers characterizes his own position as "traditionalism," while ignoring Baptist history.

Without the New Hampshire Confession, there would be no BFM. Without the 1689 London Baptist Confession, there would be no New Hampshire Confession. Reformed Baptists have been in the SBC from the beginning.

It's like he's a used car salesman, a smooth talker with a handsome face who doesn't really have much substantive to say. Leighton Flowers is the Joel Osteen of anti-Calvinism.
2 Corinthians 11:14, John 7:24, 1 Corinthians 8:2-3

I will go even further and say that Leighton Flowers is a false prophet, using his title as director of evangelism and apologetics for Texas Baptists to promote anti-Calvinism.

What kind of message does that send for evangelism? We want you to be saved as long as you don't accept Calvinism?

It seems that the SBC is evenly split between Calvinists and Arminians:
Poll: SBC pastors have 'mix of beliefs' about Calvinism - Baptist Courier

This is one of the most emotionally manipulative videos I've ever seen:

Why should we judge God by Leighton Flowers' standards rather than the Bible's standards?

Isaiah 55:8-9
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,“Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 11:34
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?

There are numerous Bible verses and quotations from the church fathers supporting the five points of Calvinism. The doctrines of grace are simply a convenient way of articulating what’s already revealed in the Bible.

It’s only called “Calvinism” because John Calvin popularized the doctrines of grace, he did not originate them. It’s the same doctrines that Augustine taught against Pelagius and Luther taught against Rome.

Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

What is Calvinism and is it biblical?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Please let me say this again, Leighton Flowers is the Joel Osteen of anti-Calvinism. I am not going to judge Dr. Flowers or Joel Osteen's hearts, but some teachers are just a handsome face and smooth voice without much substance.

 

[rlvaughn]

...some teachers are just a handsome face and smooth voice without much substance.

Judging by your picture and mine, we probably do not have a problem with at least one of those.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I'm not here to question Leighton Flowers' salvation, since only God can judge his heart.

I'm just pointing out the apparent conflict of interest between Leighton Flowers being the head of evangelism and apologetics for Texas Baptists while also being the main promoter of anti-Calvinism on Youtube.

It sends the message that Leighton wants you to join the Baptist church, as long as you're not a Calvinist. This video, comparing Calvinists to neo-Nazis, was made by a guest on his show:

 

[Humble Disciple]

 

[Humble Disciple]

I can tell you from personal experience that I'm not going to choose to obey God unless He chose me first. (John 15:16) When I believed in free will, I used it as a license to sin.

If Jesus bought and paid for me on the cross, as a unique individual, then He deserves my love and obedience in return.

 

[Humble Disciple]

 

[Reynolds]

I can tell you from personal experience that I'm not going to choose to obey God unless He chose me first. (John 15:16) When I believed in free will, I used it as a license to sin.

If Jesus bought and paid for me on the cross, as a unique individual, then He deserves my love and obedience in return.

Do you see the blatant contradiction in what you just said?

 

[thomas15]

An informed Calvinists can make an impassioned defense of the theology in particular when talking to those who are uninformed. On the other hand, an informed Arminian can do the same. That doesn't make either Biblical.

A great example is Mildred Bangs Wynkoop (1905-1997). In her short book Foundations of Wesleyan-Arminian Theology 1967 Beacon Hill, this little lady strips the meat clean off the Calvinists bones.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Martin Luther and John Calvin, in their doctrine of unconditional election, quoted Augustine more than any other theologian. Anti-Calvinists like Leighton Flowers have claimed that Augustine introduced the doctrine of unconditional election into the church due to his prior Manichaeism.

Anti-Calvinists often point out the emphasis on free will in the church fathers prior to Augustine. This was to counter the Gnostics, who used our corrupted human nature as a license to sin, saying that it doesn’t matter what we do with our bodies because we’re naturally sinful anyway.

Prior to Augustine, the church fathers taught predestination and election in some form:
https://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/calvinism-in-the-early-church-the-doctrines-of-grace-taught-by-the-early-church-fathers/

In opposition to Pelagius, who taught that humans have the natural ability to obey God apart from His grace, Augustine formulated the doctrine of unconditional election, that God predestines us according to His own good pleasure, rather than foreseen choice of faith.

Augustine formulated this doctrine, not due to Manichaeism, but due to a reading of the scriptures, especially the epistle of Romans. Augustine clarified the doctrine of election in opposition to Pelagius, just as Athanasius clarified the incarnation in opposition to Arius.

Romans 3
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[AustinC]

A great example is Mildred Bangs Wynkoop (1905-1997). In her short book Foundations of Wesleyan-Arminian Theology 1967 Beacon Hill, this little lady strips the meat clean off the Calvinists bones.

Who???
Most Wesleyans I have known are busy desperately trying not to lose their salvation, turning grace into works.
Like their cousins, the Nazarenes, they hold a philosophy of extreme pietism and then try to make the Bible fit into their philosophy.

 

[Humble Disciple]

If limited atonement, unconditional election, and other Calvinist doctrines make you think less of God, don't believe them. Your love for God matters more than the rightness of your theology.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

My only hope is that you won't become prejudiced against Calvinists as somehow being Bible-rejecting heretics.

 

[Reynolds]

If limited atonement, unconditional election, and other Calvinist doctrines make you think less of God, don't believe them. Your love for God matters more than the rightness of your theology.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

My only hope is that you won't become prejudiced against Calvinists as somehow being Bible-rejecting heretics.

I like Calvinists. Especially high Calvinists. High Calvinistic doctrine is logical and can be defended without creating errors in logic.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I have asked God to not make me a Calvinist if he doesn't want me to be a Calvinist. In the very least, I believe that God wants me to dispel myths about Calvinism, so that people will be relieved of their prejudice against Calvinists.

Since I am a Calvinist who believes in God’s irresistible grace, I accept that God will make me a provisionist, Arminian, or Molinist if He so chooses, according to His own glory and purposes. (Psalm 115:3, Psalm 135:6)

At the end of the day, your love for God is more important than the rightness of your theology:

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

 

[Humble Disciple]

What, specifically, does one mean by "high Calvinism"? This often has the connotation of being anti-evangelistic.