Time and the Creation Account

[37818]

If the forces and laws were different in the past here on earth, . . .

We have no such evidence.

. . .That means the fossil record is useless in telling us about life back in the far past also.Etc etc

Geological ages and the astronomical distances and their distant past are two different issues. You are bringing up geology issue. I have argued an old universe based on the science of the measured astronomical distances.

 

[dad2]

We have no such evidence

Science does not, that is correct, either way! Same or different.

Geological ages and the astronomical distances and their distant past are two different issues.

Yes they are. However both are belief based. For the distances, they assume/believe that space and time is the same in all the universe. For earth and the past here, they assume that nature here was the same.

You are bringing up geology issue. I have argued an old universe based on the science of the measured astronomical distances.

No you have not actually. You were not able to discuss the reasons you claim these distances. They are all faith based, 100%. Period.

 

[37818]

Science does not, that is correct, either way! Same or different.

Not true. The evidence which you are either, ingorant or blatantly in denial of. The evidence is the laws of physics based on light and what we have measured with light seem to be the same in the distant past as the here and now. What is different are some measurements between the then and now. But not the laws by which those measurements are made.

. . . are belief based.

So is all knowledge of anything. The point of my argument of Romans 10:17-18 for the reason of the God given natural revelation. No one knows anything without belief in truth. The problem is those who deny truth. God gave man natural revelation before He gave any special revelation. What constituted natural revelation was in place in His creation (Genesis 1:1) before God made man.

No you have not actually. You were not able to discuss the reasons you claim these distances. They are all faith based, 100%. Period.

Then you deny the two things. The evidence and what the special written word of God says about the evidence, Romans 10:18, Psalms 19:4.
How do you know what you know? It is 100% faith based. There is nothing anyone knows that is not believed by them.

 

[dad2]

Not true. The evidence which you are either, ingorant or blatantly in denial of. The evidence is the laws of physics based on light and what we have measured with light seem to be the same in the distant past as the here and now. What is different are some measurements between the then and now. But not the laws by which those measurements are made.

You think time is a law of physics? Seriously? Stop pretending there is evidence that time itself exists as we know it in the far universe. Post proof or admit defeat.

So is all knowledge of anything. The point of my argument of Romans 10:17-18 for the reason of the God given natural revelation. No one knows anything without belief in truth. The problem is those who deny truth. God gave man natural revelation before He gave any special revelation. What constituted natural revelation was in place in His creation (Genesis 1:1) before God made man.

No idea what you are blabbering about here. You seem to like to use the phrase natural revelation. I do not read in Gen 1:1 that some sort of 'natural revelation' was in place before God lifted a finger, moved a muscle or opened His mouth?! You are making stuff up.

Then you deny the two things. The evidence and what the special written word of God says about the evidence, Romans 10:18, Psalms 19:4.
How do you know what you know? It is 100% faith based. There is nothing anyone knows that is not believed by them.

The evidence? Post it and we all can have a look at it. Until then stop pretending you have any. Then you pretend God knows about some evidence because of some invented 'natural revelation' or whatever. Truly absurd. In Ps 19 it talks about the heavens declaring His glory, not about some natural revelation that says time itself is the same in all the universe. Have you a problem admitting science really does not know? If you want to make a bible case then make a real one. Using meaningless catch phrases and listing verses that have zero to do with what you are trying to support is not making a Scripture case.

God does not say that millions of years of time were involved in starlight getting to Adam's eyes! The bible says stars were made for signs for us (including Adam) to see! Your cheap pretense that the bible says time is the same in all the universe is empty and hollow.

 

[37818]

You think time is a law of physics? Seriously? Stop pretending there is evidence that time itself exists as we know it in the far universe. Post proof or admit defeat.

Time dilation is a proven fact.

No idea what you are blabbering about here. You seem to like to use the phrase natural revelation. I do not read in Gen 1:1 that some sort of 'natural revelation' was in place before God lifted a finger, moved a muscle or opened His mouth?! You are making stuff up.

What is referred to in Romans 10:18 is being called the word of God in Romans 10:17.

The evidence? Post it and we all can have a look at it. Until then stop pretending you have any. Then you pretend God knows about some evidence because of some invented 'natural revelation' or whatever. Truly absurd. In Ps 19 it talks about the heavens declaring His glory, not about some natural revelation that says time itself is the same in all the universe. Have you a problem admitting science really does not know? If you want to make a bible case then make a real one. Using meaningless catch phrases and listing verses that have zero to do with what you are trying to support is not making a Scripture case.

God does not say that millions of years of time were involved in starlight getting to Adam's eyes! The bible says stars were made for signs for us (including Adam) to see! Your cheap pretense that the bible says time is the same in all the universe is empty and hollow.

Andromada Galaxy can be seen with the eye at night. And it's distance has been measured to be 2.5 million light years away.

 

[dad2]

Time dilation is a proven fact.

So what? How does this tell us what time is like in the far unknown universe? The fact is you don't know and how time behaves on earth is not relevant.

What is referred to in Romans 10:18 is being called the word of God in Romans 10:17.

Great, so what? That has zero to do with the topic and no relevance whatsoever.

Andromada Galaxy can be seen with the eye at night. And it's distance has been measured to be 2.5 million light years away.

Show how the distance is measured. We will soon learn it is only believed by faith. The way it is 'measured' involves a belief time is the same all the way there. Total faith.

 

[timtofly]

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-oldest-age-universe.html

That picture looks like one of those 3d puzzle pictures. Perhaps this one is about a dragon?

 

[timtofly]

There are telescopes. And there are instruments and cameras used on them to observe and take measurements.

The Milky Way our Galaxy.
Andromada Galaxy can also be seen with the eye. It has been measured to be 2.5 million light years away.

That picture in the other post claimed to be a 20 billion year across sample only 380,000 years after the beginning. Can one sample extrapolate the change of the last 13.8 billion years? If the size was already 20 billion light years as a baby, has it gotten smaller the older it gets?

I would like to see more of an argument about how time itself gives us the size. We were led to believe it was a small area that rapidly expanded, and has been expanding with age. Now the original size is larger than the age itself? Sounds more like a cube universe now. Can all these stars literally fit in a universe the size of 8000 years? Just wait till they all come to earth as angels at the Second Coming as light as fig leaves on a windy day.

 

[timtofly]

Right, right, right.
Day 6.
That means six eons.
That is more or less provable by carbon dating, and the fossil record but certainly not by the word of God.
What's a day or two anyhoo.
God was really tired after all that time, so tired He had to rest on the seventh day.
And He was really tired after travelling all those light years making all those planets.
Six eons! I'm beat.
Ok one or two long ones and four short.
However long you want to make it, those days could have been really, really long.
But on the sixth day is the same as the beginning, relatively.

But from the beginning of the creation
God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6

God was not tired. God just stopped creating to let His creation do its thing. God stopped creating for the first 1000 years. Then God returned and planted the Garden of Eden. Then God placed a 1000 year living human in that Garden. After that human named the animals, God named that human Adam. Then God reversed that male and female part he made each human. God separated the female part from the Adam part, and then Adam did the only thing he was good at: named her Eve. Called her the mother of every living thing. Then Adam texted all the sons of God across the earth, about the split. They would have to wait a while for Adam and Eve to have daughters. Wait, back up. No texting, you say? How did Cain get his wife, if Eve was the first mother of all living? All the sons of God showed God Adam's text, and asked for the procedure. Mystery solved.

That first week were literal 24 hour days, not eons. Neither was there a prior beginning. You really think God had a prior creation with just tiny creatures and one cell organisms mucking up creation for a couple thousand years? Can real science please explain a perfect environment for 1000 years where nothing died, and nothing new was planted. It was a perfect 100% recycling effort by every single creature on the face of the earth. Genesis 2:1-6 is all the proof one needs.

How does this explain change over time, if all that changed was which direction will we walk today to keep recycling all of the earth. Even Satan had to perform as a star for 1,000 years with only the thoughts in his head. The only one with the super ability to over think all of creation. He had a lot of great ideas, that surely God would implement for him. Texting was one of them more than likely. Obviously it was not implemented in the first 7000 years.

 

[37818]

So what? How does this tell us what time is like in the far unknown universe? The fact is you don't know and how time behaves on earth is not relevant.

This is your closed minded unbelief. Which you fail understand the mathematics of science is not possible without being able to measure time to be the same in some way. Elements being identified in distant galaxies.

Great, so what? That has zero to do with the topic and no relevance whatsoever.

Why? It is my understanding the laws of physics are do to God's word. [Natural revelation.]

Show how the distance is measured. We will soon learn it is only believed by faith. The way it is 'measured' involves a belief time is the same all the way there. Total faith.

You do not know anything you do not have faith in to be true. Not one thing. So stop with your atheistic argument it's "total faith."

 

[dad2]

This is your closed minded unbelief. Which you fail understand the mathematics of science is not possible without being able to measure time to be the same in some way. Elements being identified in distant galaxies

So you can't discuss the issue intelligently and like to insult instead. OK. Seeing the signature of an element in light steaming in here form far far away does not tell us a single solitary thing about the nature of time there. Gong!

Why? It is my understanding the laws of physics are do to God's word. [Natural revelation.]

Say what? Which laws? The laws in heaven, or Eden, or the pre flood world, or today? I believe that they all are. That does not however, of course mean that they are all the same. It does mean that God is running things.

You do not know anything you do not have faith in to be true. Not one thing. So stop with your atheistic argument it's "total faith."

Another meaningless word salad. Origin science is total faith, and this we know because they use belief based premises. For example for the evolution of life theory they believe that this nature today is the key to how the past was. In cosmology and the origin of the stars, they use a belief that time and space as we know it here where we are is the same in all the unknown universe. If you want to support a claim that this is not faith, start anytime. As for the bible, yes we believe by faith and what we believe has to be based on what it says! Not 'Oh God could have lied and done it any other way He wanted' baloney.

 

[37818]

So you can't discuss the issue intelligently and like to insult instead. OK. Seeing the signature of an element in light steaming in here form far far away does not tell us a single solitary thing about the nature of time there. Gong!

Time dilation can be proven. Would you be willing to do a proof? It is a matter of some arithmetic.

Say what? Which laws? The laws in heaven, or Eden, or the pre flood world, or today? I believe that they all are. That does not however, of course mean that they are all the same. It does mean that God is running things.

What is referred to in Romans 10:18 in Psalms 19:4 have to do with being God's word?

Another meaningless word salad. Origin science is total faith, and this we know because they use belief based premises. For example for the evolution of life theory they believe that this nature today is the key to how the past was. In cosmology and the origin of the stars, they use a belief that time and space as we know it here where we are is the same in all the unknown universe. If you want to support a claim that this is not faith, start anytime. As for the bible, yes we believe by faith and what we believe has to be based on what it says! Not 'Oh God could have lied and done it any other way He wanted' baloney.

Do you or do you not believe truth is absolute?
Do you or do you not believe in the law of non contradiction?
Do you or do you not believe how one knows anything comes before what one knows?

 

[dad2]

Time dilation can be proven. Would you be willing to do a proof? It is a matter of some arithmetic.

If you are talking about in an airplane or rocket, that is irrelevant. If you suggest you can support that for the far universe, then post the proof.

What is referred to in Romans 10:18 in Psalms 19:4 have to do with being God's word?

Great. No point then? Are you suggesting that those verses claim that time itself is the same in all the universe?! If so, explain how. If not then it is a wasted post yet again.

Do you or do you not believe truth is absolute?

Say what? Try to focus and post something that relates to the conversation.

Do you or do you not believe in the law of non contradiction?
Do you or do you not believe how one knows anything comes before what one knows?

More spam blather.

 

[37818]

If you are talking about in an airplane or rocket, that is irrelevant. If you suggest you can support that for the far universe, then post the proof.

First it requires some assumptions.
That there is no Dr dilation.
Two observers and one traveler.
The two observers are one light year apart. So they are one year in each other's past.
The traveler is moving at half the speed of light so it is going to take two years to travel that one light year.
For this thought experiment two sets of four calculations. How the first first observer sees traveler and traveler sees the first observer. And how the second observer sees traveler and how the traveler sees the sees the second obs oferver.

And how, if they did, would see each other's clock rates, to their own. Again, we do not assume any time dilation.

First observer will see the traveler take three years to travel two years to the second observer.
The traveler over two years will only see one year of the first observer on the way to the second.

The traveler over two years will see three years past for the second observer. And the second observer will not have seen the traver to have left the first observer for one year, and see the traveler's two years pass in one year.

Now calculate the time rates how each sees the other. They see each other's clocks run at different rates, to their own.

[Now only if the not assumed time dilation is calculated in will they see each other's clocks run at the same rate, compared to their own being normal.]

 

[dad2]

First it requires some assumptions.
That there is no Dr dilation.
Two observers and one traveler.
The two observers are one light year apart.

No such thing. Man has not been even 2 light seconds away, there are no observers on light year away that is total fantasy and imagination.

And how, if they did, would see each other's clock rates, to their own. Again, we do not assume any time dilation.

You make it up, believe it and then go on to presumptuously assume it actually. The only observed dilation has been here on and near the earth.

First observer will see the traveler take three years to travel two years to the second observer.
The traveler over two years will only see one year of the first observer on the way to the second.

The traveler over two years will see three years past for the second observer.

No, they will do nothing of the sort actually. They will sit in their armchair and dream. Remember man has not even been a few light seconds away from earth and even the furthest probe is less than a light day away. Don't tell us what some imaginary observer will see out there! You do not know, period.
I have my own religion, thank you very much.

 

[37818]

No such thing. Man has not been even 2 light seconds away, there are no observers on light year away that is total fantasy and imagination.

It is a matter of concepts and mathematics to test a concept.

You make it up, believe it and then go on to presumptuously assume it actually. The only observed dilation has been here on and near the earth.

First observer will see the traveler take three years to travel two years to the second observer.
The traveler over two years will only see one year of the first observer on the way to the second.

An actuality one would also have to take into account many other factors. And we could not be an actual observer.

No, they will do nothing of the sort actually. They will sit in their armchair and dream. Remember man has not even been a few light seconds away from earth and even the furthest probe is less than a light day away. Don't tell us what some imaginary observer will see out there! You do not know, period.
I have my own religion, thank you very much.

Sure.

 

[dad2]

It is a matter of concepts and mathematics to test a concept.
An actuality one would also have to take into account many other factors. And we could not be an actual observer.

Sure.

It is a matter of 100% blind faith and speculation. No such thing as I said. No one was more than a few light seconds away. No one knows what time is like out in unknown space. You are seeking to transpose our time out into the unknown universe. (example, a year, a million years etc)

 

[37818]

No such thing. Man has not been even 2 light seconds away, there are no observers on light year away that is total fantasy and imagination.

You truly seem close minded to concepts and mathematics. Man has been 1.3 light seconds away. Taking 2.6 seconds for a to Earth and back communication from the Moon.

 

[dad2]

You truly seem close minded to concepts and mathematics. Man has been 1.3 light seconds away. Taking 2.6 seconds for a to Earth and back communication from the Moon.

That is what I said, man has been only a few seconds away. Why pretend that is news or that it helps your false science claims of distances and old ages? You seek to extrapolate the time involved in the 1.3 seconds to infinity and beyond. No can do. Only by pure faith do you do that.

 

[37818]

That is what I said, man has been only a few seconds away. Why pretend that is news or that it helps your false science claims of distances and old ages? You seek to extrapolate the time involved in the 1.3 seconds to infinity and beyond. No can do. Only by pure faith do you do that.

Again, no one knows anything without faith. Our Christianity is built on a faith in handed down translated documents where others where the eye witnesses. Our blind faith to . . . .