William Lane Craig on Romans 9

[Humble Disciple]

John Piper has said that if Calvinism causes you to doubt the character of God, you shouldn't be a Calvinist.

George Whitefield and John Wesley accomplished great things together, because they were able to agree to disagree about predestination.

In the above video, William Lane Craig provides a non-Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. If I wasn’t a Calvinist, I’d probably be a Molinist like Dr. Craig:
What is Molinism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Humble Disciple]

Like the following commenter, I don’t find Craig’s explanation convincing, due to how much of Romans 9, the most controversial parts, he seemingly ignores:

So I get what he is saying in the beginning portion of the video about Paul broadening the scope of salvation to Gentiles and not guaranteed to only Jews...but how does Dr. Craig think he has answered the question about predestination vs free will when he totally ignores the actual verses that seem controversial or to reference predestination (for example 9:16, 9:21 - 24 (particularly 21, 23 where it says "prepared beforehand", and 24 where it says "called")?

Or why does Paul bring up the idea of God being unjust (9:14) if his point is that salvation is available to all through faith? Or why bring up the portion about the clay talking back to the potter? At least on the surface (cause I admit I have very little understanding of the context), it seems a lot like Paul is effectively saying "Yeah predestination sounds cruel and unjust from our perspective but who are we to tell God how he should operate?".

I personally don't know which side is "right", but again, I can't really feel satisfied in his answer (or any answer for that matter) that has to skip over whole verses.

 

[JD731]

Romans 9 must be understood in the context of the people of God, Israel, and how and why God is dealing with them in this New Testament age, after their rejection of Jesus Christ as both the Son of God and also the Messiah of their nation. Few of them, a remnant, is preserved in this age to keep the hope alive for Israel and to be the foundation for the Christian church, which would ultimately be a church with a gentile character. We understand now that the church that is being formed by the Spirit of God with mostly gentile members will be presented to him when completed as his bride. So, the church is both the body and bride of Christ and is typified in the OT, first of all by the story of Adam and Eve, Eve being taken from the sleeping body of Adam and presented, when formed, as his wife and companion and helpmeet. Also, typically, the 8 gentile women in the OT who were married to Jewish men represents in type the gentile church and bride of the Jewish Jesus after he rose from the dead.

Romans 7:1 is the beginning of this explanation by Paul of God's dealing with this entire age in relation to Israel and his church and must be understood if one will have the proper light and understanding of these chapters.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

This identifies who he is aiming his instruction to. The gentiles had never been under the law of Moses. He continues in this vein through Rom 11:12 until he shifts gears and begins speaking to gentiles in Rom 11:13 and defines their inclusion into this process through the remainder of the chapter. They are included later because of the Jews rejection as a nation of Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

All the covenant promises, including the salvation of the nation that sprang from Jacob, will be saved but it will be after the gentile church is fully formed, according to the chapter.

Paul writes the following about Israel, his flesh brethren in the present tense, not in the past tense. The present tense was in AD 58, when he wrote this letter. The gentiles had been included in the church of Jesus Christ in AD 40, Acts 10, which was 10 years after the foundation with the Jews in Acts 2 immediately after Jesus ascended to heaven with the promise he will return.

Paul is still praying for his nation and brothers in the present tense in Rom 10;

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

He is praying for a corporate salvation and his prayer will be answered, but much later.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

One must see Israel as a corporate entity with many members and they must be saved as one man before the covenants of God are realized.

God's plan is marvelous to behold and it cannot fail.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 9 must be understood in the context of the people of God, Israel

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

 

[JD731]

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

Thank you red for reminding us of the prophecy in Hosea concerning the northern ten tribe nation commonly called Ephraim or Israel. The context, redneck, must be allowed to identify the gentiles in Romans 9. You may or may not know that Hosea, a contemporary of Isaiah, was sent by God to the northern nation to tell them a few things about the next several hundred years, beginning when he sent Assyria to take them captive back to lands controlled by the Assyrians, because , God said, he will no longer have mercy on Israel, the 10 tribes, but he would have mercy on Judah. You should read Hosea chapter 1 because Paul quotes this chapter in Romans 9 in the context of having mercy on gentiles. God sees his people Israel as gentiles when they are out of their own land and are cut off from the covenants and are obeying the laws of gentiles instead of the laws of God.

You should go back and read Romans 9 again with this new information and it will help you see more clearly. Check this out redneck.

22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them,
Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The operative word in this passage I have quoted from Rom 9 and the quote from Hosea 1 that Paul refers to is the word "children." It takes a new birth to become a child of God. Paul is referring to this new birth through Jesus Christ for the sons of Abraham. Remember Isaac was a miraculous son and pictures the spiritual man, bor he said this earlier.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This is typology 101. Abraham stands here as God in type. He had other children of the flesh. Ishmael was born of Hagar, a picture of the flesh. Isaac is born after the flesh was proven not able to conceive this son and God bringing this birth to pass miraculously. So, in the statements above, the Jews were sons of Abraham after the flesh but that did not make them sons of God. The fleshly children of Abraham must have a new birth into the family of God in order to be children of God. This is the point.

Remember, Paul is instructed those of the law in these passages. God is going to receive all those of the 10 scattered tribes as children of God because it is now possible through Christ to become the children of God.

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little [while], and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And [God] said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 ¶ Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel.

Redneck, see the two spots I bolded and underlined? This is the context of having mercy and not having mercy in Rom 9. It is Judah and Israel.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I have realized why I disagree with Leighton Flowers so strongly.

He seems to reject the doctrine of prevenient grace while holding too weak a view of God's sovereignty.

I need to learn more about Molinism as a middle ground between God's sovereignty and human free will.

My intent has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

Calvinism is just a framework for understanding the text of scripture, and I've never claimed that it's required for salvation. I am just as offended by anti-Calvinists as I am by young earth creationists who attack Hugh Ross for not believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

Just as the Bible doesn't specifically endorse either old earth or young earth creationism, it doesn't specifically endorse either Calvinism or anti-Calvinism. I just wish there were more tolerance for points of view that aren't required for salvation.

 

[JD731]

I have realized why I disagree with Leighton Flowers so strongly.

He seems to reject the doctrine of prevenient grace while holding too weak a view of God's sovereignty.

I need to learn more about Molinism as a middle ground between God's sovereignty and human free will.

My intent has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

Calvinism is just a framework for understanding the text of scripture, and I've never claimed that it's required for salvation. I am just as offended by anti-Calvinists as I am by young earth creationists who attack Hugh Ross for not believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

Just as the Bible doesn't specifically endorse either old earth or young earth creationism, it doesn't specifically endorse either Calvinism or anti-Calvinism. I just wish there were more tolerance for points of view that aren't required for salvation.

While it is true that God could exercise sovereignty over every act of man it is just as true that he can choose not to. This he did. God, the maker and owner of all things has chosen to make men stewards of the earth. He has given us the rules for our stewardship and we will, he says , give account of our stewardship. Nothing in scripture is more clear than that.

Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Matthew 25:14-30
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I didn't find William Lane Craig's explanation of Romans 9 to be satisfying, so I read the Bible on my own, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and arrived at my own explanation:

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

 

[Humble Disciple]

According to William Lane Craig, when he visited Calvin College, all of the theologians said they were actually Molinists, not Calvinists:

When I gave the Stob lectures at Calvin College and Seminary, I was shocked when the theologians at the seminary told me that they were all Molinists! I increasingly encounter people who are moving in the Molinist direction (both from the Calvinistic end and the open theist end of the spectrum!)
Molinism vs. Calvinism | Reasonable Faith

It seems to that Molinism is the next logical step after Calvinism, that once you've accepted the Bible's passages on God's sovereignty, Molinism offers a way to reconcile them with other Biblical passages on human responsibility.