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The Irenaean Theodicy, an alternative to Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Aug 3, 2021.

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  1. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    According to Calvinism's theodicy, all evil acts in the world are sovereignly decreed by God, according to His purposes, however hidden from us they might be. If your daughter is raped, for example, their theodicy would tell you to find solace in the belief that it was all part of God's sovereign decree, working for a good beyond any of our understanding.

    Calvinism's theodicy is based on Augustine, who deviated from the church's previous teachings on free will:


    Before Augustine, Irenaeus offered perhaps a more satisfying theodicy, which is more compatible with Arminianism, Wesleyanism, etc. No one can accuse Irenaeus of Pelagianism, since he lived during the second century, long before Pelagius.

    While Augustine was a former Manichean, a Gnostic sect, Irenaeus defended free will against the Gnostics:
    While I disagree with John Hick's belief that spiritual development continues in the afterlife, so that all people will eventually be saved, he more or less presents a fair picture of how Irenaeus answered the problem of evil:

     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God does not cause the rape to happen, but did permit it to happen!
     
  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    God has decreed certain things would happen because SIN entered the world.
    So then like an umbrella policy, the bad things that happen are part of the over-all coverage decision.
    God also decrees very specific bad or good things to happen according to His will and purposes, and He can override the policy.

    God's curse is very real and powerful and active.
    Deuteronomy 27
    11 And Moses commanded the people on the same day, saying, 12 “These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin; 13 and these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.

    14 “And the Levites shall speak with a loud voice and say to all the men of Israel: 15 ‘Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’

    “And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen!’

    16 ‘Cursed is the one who treats his father or his mother with contempt.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    17 ‘Cursed is the one who moves his neighbor’s landmark.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    18 ‘Cursed is the one who makes the blind to wander off the road.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    19 ‘Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    20 ‘Cursed is the one who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s bed.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    21 ‘Cursed is the one who lies with any kind of animal.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    22 ‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    23 ‘Cursed is the one who lies with his mother-in-law.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    24 ‘Cursed is the one who attacks his neighbor secretly.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    25 ‘Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

    26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’

    “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”
     
  4. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    The LORD will cause you to...
    Curses on Disobedience

    15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

    16 “Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.

    17 “Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

    18 “Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.

    19 “Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

    20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

    25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

    30 “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.

    36 “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you.

    38 “You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

    43 “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

    45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.

    47 “Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.

    52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

    58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

    64 “Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.

    68 “And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.
     
  5. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Those of the world still bear the curse due to their sinful disobedience to God's commands..
    And all have sinned, but on some God showed mercy and love to save them from His own wrath.
     
  6. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

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    How can humans be responsible for their actions if God sovereignly decrees them?
     
  7. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    People are born sinners, the wicked are wicked from the womb.
    People just can't help it, they are born sinners, it is their nature.
    It is a part of the curse come down from Adam and Eve, they are part of the evil world system, cursed by God.
    What we just slough as thinking not so bad really, God says is worthy of death and they will go into punishment.

    New International Version
    Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

    New Living Translation
    These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

    English Standard Version
    The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

    Berean Study Bible
    The wicked are estranged from the womb; the liars go astray from birth.

    King James Bible
    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
     
  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:9
    then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

    The godly are so due to the mercy of God, His love for them made them godly of God, God is their Father.
    The unjust are so because they are born of the world, the flesh, have the devil as their father, and are not born again of God, they are of this world, they are from below.

    John 8:22-24
    New King James Version


    22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

    23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
    24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    those of this world, from beneath, from below, do not believe in Him, they are not of God, so they do not hear.
     
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