Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

This is funny since I haven't studied any of John Calvin's work, nor do I bring him up.
However, you have fallen upon arguing against a fictional calvin made from your own straw.

I have shared that God many times ordains that you and I can make decisions as we wish. That doesn't make our will free. It means that God has chosen not to stop that choice. Why? Because it fits within the ordained will of God.
I have pointed you to Balaam as a clear example that God can and does step in and utterly stop us from doing what we will. This clearly shows that our wills are not free.
If a person had true free will, they would be their own sovereign ruler. They would be equal to or greater than God in power and authority. Do you believe you have a free will, silverhair?

 

"…………….”

 

I have done so but you just will not believe what the bible says. Look at your theology and try to be honest with yourself. Calvinism is not biblical.

 

Your argument is foolish. You say on one hand that God gives us a free will then say that that free will is so we can only what God ordains. Please try to make up your mind.

Why would I not say you follow calvin your the one that keeps supporting his views. By the way have I ever said God is not sovereign NO. Can God control what we do YES. But and here is what you have such a hard time understanding. God does not have to control everything we do He has given man a free will and even then His plan will be worked out, and why you may ask, because He is God. His plan does not require absolute control as you posit. He is greater than that. He can work out His plan even with man having a free will. God wants man to chose to love Him but you think God prefers to have puppets that He makes love Him.
So tell me who has the higher view of God, hint it not you.

 

Looks like the cartoon really suits you.

 

Please don't dodge the issue.
Do you accept that mainstream Calvinists do not believe that people are saved so that they will believe? Yes or no? Unless and until you understand that, there is really no point in discussing any further and I will just put you on ignore and get on with my life. Once you understand that, we can discuss your other issues with Calvinism.

But to stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating "Calvinism is not biblical" is not a form of argument.

 

Martin answer me this? Do you think people have to be regenerated before they can believe, Yes or No.

 

This is really disappointing! I have asked you a question and you try to avoid it by asking me a question that I've already answered more than once. Go back and look at my post #38 where I pointed you to the quotation by William Tyndale. God must open a sinner's heart before he will believe.
'And you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
"No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
"Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."
"Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
"And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil."
'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'
'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be.'
'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'
'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'
'But God ............even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (it is by grace you have been saved).

Now before you say that to be regenerate or to be elect is the same as being saved, it isn't. Having a ticket for the opera is not the same as being at the opera.

Now I have answered your question so will you please answer mine: Do you accept that mainstream Calvinists do not believe that people are saved so that they will believe? Yes or no?

 

John 16:13 YLT and when He may come -- the Spirit of truth -- He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you;

NET But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

Is, Spirit of Truth, necessary relative to believing?

2 Thes 2:13 YLT And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

NET But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Acts 15:14 YLT Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name,

NET Simeon has explained how God first concerned himself to select from among the Gentiles a people for his name.

 

Martin I will do you that courtesy. First here is what webster says about regenerate
In theology, to make new; to renovate; to transform; to change from natural enmity to the love of God and his law; to implant holy affections in the heart; to regenerate.
In other words save you before you believe. So to answer your question Yes I do think that mainstream calvinists think that people have to be saved before they can believe.

Now you may want to say that this does not mean reborn or saved but that is the way I have heard and see it come from any number of calvinists. And your theology requires it. Actually once a person has trusted in Christ Jesus they are one of the elect. Yes I know you will say what about "elect before the foundation of the world" But you have to remember "in Him".
God knows everyone that will trust in Christ Jesus and He has said we will be elect in His son.

And by the way I do believe that God opens a persons heart before they can believe it's called prevenient grace. It is available to everyone so that they can chose to accept or reject the gospel.

Martin as I have said before I could never be a calvinist because I just see to many things in that theology that do an injustice to the character of God.

 

Well first of all, where do you get off telling me what I believe? I tell you what I believe and you say, "No you don't! You believe something else.." How does that work?
Secondly, Webster is quite right. To regenerate does mean to regenerate. But how is someone going to believe in God in a saving way if he still has 'natural enmity' instead of love towards him?
Thirdly, to be regenerate is not the same as being saved. To be justified - that is, to be declared righteous by God - is to be saved. As I pointed out before, to have a ticket for the opera/races/ball game is not the same as being there. Justification is by grace through faith (Romans 3:23-26), and no one will believe unless he is born from above (John 3:3ff, Acts of the Apostles 16:14). That is how it works, whether you approve or not.

Again, you are conflating regeneration and salvation. The one leads to the other, but they are not the same thing.

You have this back side forward. The elect are indeed elect in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the 'in Christ' means that they were given to Christ by the Father to redeem, and not one of them will ever be lost (John 6:39). Praise God for irresistible grace!

I am glad that you believe in Prevenient Grace. It does not make you right, but it makes you less wrong.

Silverhair, I could never be an Arminian because I just see too many things in that theology that do an injustice to the character of God. Specifically, Arminianism declares that God does not love anyone enough to save him, only to offer him salvation. Titus 3:1-7 speaks a much better word. '......According to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour........' Note that the New Birth was the means by which He saved us. '.......so that, having been justified by His grace, we should become heirs.........' First He regenerated us (means) then He justified us (result). faith is not mentioned here, but since justification is by grace through faith, it may be assumed. Election....... regeneration.......faith........justification.......adoption as heirs. All of grace, all of Him, none of us. Praise the Lord!

 

Martin did you read the post? Where did I tell you what YOU believe? You asked me a question and then get mad when I answer it.

Did you not read what Webster said “to change from natural enmity to the love of God and his law, to implant holy affections in the heart” does that not indicate to you that the person was saved. If not then what does it mean? And you ask a question that Webster answered, how did you not see that?

"Regeneration is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit of granting spiritual life to dead sinners. This is not a work in which man contributes but is a work of God alone....Because man needs a grace with resurrection power, then any willful activity on his own part, including faith itself, cannot be the cause but the effect of the new birth. The grace of regeneration is the power of God that grants humans the ability to exercise faith and new inclinations towards God." TGC Regeneration - The Gospel Coalition

Here we see it clearly stated the new birth is the cause of your faith and since it then says regeneration is what allows man to exercise faith this makes regeneration equal new birth/salvation. So TGC has man saved so they can believe.

You like to keep saying that I do not agree that God saves us because we believe but that is what I have been saying all along. It is the calvinist that says we have to be saved before we can believe. Why would I have a problem with scripture such as Rom 3:23-26 Joh 3:3 ff or Acts 16:14.

I am not the one that conflates regeneration and salvation that falls to the calvinist, see above. I can not help it if your theology makes you uncomfortable. If you don’t like what calvinism is then change your view.

If as you say God has given a select group to Christ Jesus via “irresistible grace” then that means that the vast majority of people are not given to Christ Jesus and because God made that choice then they are condemned for no other reason than God wanted to do it. Remember these choices were made, according to calvinism, before the foundation of the world. So these people could not be condemned because they had sinned. When you think through your calvinist views you can see the flaws.

The bible declares that God loves everyone so much that He wants all to come to repentance 2Pe 3:9; 1Ti 2:4; 1Ti 4:10 and be saved. Christ Jesus went to the cross so that Gods’ offer of salvation could be realized. 1Ti 2:6 This offer was made for everyone not a select few. Joh 3:14-18 Salvation is by grace through faith Rom 5:2; Eph 2:8; Gal 2:16 compare this to the trust that Abram had in the Lord Gen 15:6 for which it was accounted to him righteousness.

So exactly what do you think prevenient grace is?

 

@Silverhair,
So long as you, a non-Calvinist, keep telling me, a Calvinist, what Calvinists believe, there can be no meaningful dialogue between us. CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE HAS TO BE SAVED BEFORE THEY BELIEVE. Until you come to understand that, there's no point in discussing further.

 

Martin did you not notice that it was not me that said it was TGC that is a calvinist site. I just copied from there site go check it out.

"Again, for the Calvinist, Ephesians 2:1 is the deciding factor. It is impossible to draw, unblind, soften, or open the minds of dead people. God must make people alive, regenerate them, before they can believe." Does regeneration come before faith? | GotQuestions.org
"If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." Regeneration Precedes Faith
Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?
The answer to the question is “yes,” Regeneration means that one has been born again. Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?

Martin if you are going to keep saying that "CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE HAS TO BE SAVED BEFORE THEY BELIEVE." You are going to need to talk to the people at these web sites. All Calvinist ones by the way.

Also discussion is an exchange of ideas. You just want people to affirm your beliefs. That is not discussion. If and when you want to have an actual discussion then drop me a line.

 

Exactly! Do you not understand that you are conflating regeneration and salvation? I have told you probably half a dozen times. Regeneration must precede faith (1 Corinthians 2:14 eyc.), but regeneration is not salvation; it leads to salvation.

How many more times do I have to repeat myself?

 

Martin what do you think "Born Again" means? What does "Make Alive" mean? What does "Regeneration Precedes Faith" mean? This is not me saying these things these are calvinists. You may have a different understanding of these words but regeneration means that the person has been saved. The Calvinist ordo salutis has regeneration prior to faith. For the calvinist you have regeneration or the new birth by the grace of God prior to faith not after. I would like to say that calvinist believe prior to regeneration but that is not what i find.
I think this is one of the most telling quotes:
A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
Loraine Boettner
This quote is the opposite of what the bible says Act 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." or Rom 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

You have said that regeneration must precede faith but what does the bible say? What does it say in Tit 3:5 ...He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit," When do we receive the Holy Spirit? Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,...
To say that the sinner does not naturally receive the things of the Spirit of God (1Co 2:14) is not to say that he cannot. Apart from divine enlightenment, conviction, and drawing, no sinner would respond to the Gospel, but this enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner (Joh 1:9; Joh 16:8; Joh 12:32).
The grace of God, that is His free unmerited love and favor, which He extends to all man enables us to accept or reject the calling of God. And those that do call on God will be saved Rom 10:13 "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

 

I don't think you can be reading my posts. I believe absolutely that regeneration must precede faith. What I have denied is that salvation precedes faith. For the third time, having a ticket to the opera is not the same thing as being at the opera.

If that is what Boettner wrote then he was dead wrong. I have his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination but I haven't read it for some years. If you have a page or chapter reference, I will look it up.

Yes, I fully agree with that. As I said in my last post, regeneration and renewing are the means by which God saves sinners. The regeneration and renewing come first, and the salvation follows when one believes.

This is the sealing of the Spirit, not His work of regeneration. A seal is put on something as a mark of authenticity.

The Gospel, being God's truth, enlightens everyone who hears it so that they are without excuse, but it is the simple fact that not all men are drawn to Christ. The 'all' here can only mean people of all races, languages, conditions abilities, as shown from the following verses.
Mark 1:5. 'Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem went out to Him and were all baptized by Him.....' Was every single person from Judea and Jerusalem baptized by John? Hardly! Even if such a thing were possible, Luke 7:30 tells us that the Pharisees and lawyers were not baptized.
John 8:2. 'Now early in the morning He came again to the temple and all the people came to Him, and He sat down and taught them.' Did every single resident of Jerusalem come to the temple? No! The temple could not contain more than about 3,000 people. Again, these verses mean people of all classes and conditions.

Absolutely not, thank God! I praise Him every day for irresistible grace. God loved me enough, not merely to offer me salvation, but to save me, and He made me willing. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power.' 'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'

Here, I am pleased to say, we are in perfect agreement.

 

Loraine Boettner (2017). “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Fifth Edition]”, p.135, Pickle Partners Publishing

 

Yes, it is.
Please read it again:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).

In the above it not only says "does not", it also says "cannot".
In other words,
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God....Neither can he know them.

1 Corinthians 2 develops how that the reason the Spirit is given to believers is so that they might know the things that are freely given to them by God:

" But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ).

 

Verse 10 specifically states that God has revealed the things which He has prepared for them that love Him, by His Spirit.
Verse 12 tells us why we, as believers, have received that Spirit...So that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
Verse 13 tells us that Paul is identifying what those "things " are, as the things that he is speaking of to believers...things that the Holy Ghost teaches, not men.

When we get to verse 14, God's Spirit through Paul is attesting to the fact that the "natural man" ( as opposed to the spiritual man in verse 15 ) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them.
Why?
Because they are foolishness to him and they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned.

The "natural man" by reason of his ( or her ) condition before God, cannot and will not receive, or welcome, the things of the Spirit of God.
This includes His words ( see John 8:43-47 ), as they are things of the Spirit...God's word going forth from God to men.

The only way that the "natural man" can willfully receive the things of the Spirit of God ( instead of looking upon them as foolishness ) is by the Spirit of God.


That isn't "Calvinism" speaking...that is Scripture itself speaking and according to the very words on the page.