• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Willingness of men

Status
Not open for further replies.

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi martin please read the post.
What I said is
"Well isn't that what your calvinist theology demands? Your the ones that say He has to control every thought and action of every person so that would by your own words make that happen. So it turns out your the one that has God condemn billions of persons to hell for no other reason then that is what He decided to do. Remember your the one that has God only elect/save a select group and the rest have no chance all to be saved, in other words they are condemned. Can you not see that? It is not because of anything they do as it was all decided before time began."

Please explain how I could abolish "irresistible grace" since there is no such thing. That is just something that calvinists made up so they could prop up a bad theology.

In case you missed it:

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass .." LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

"Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,.." CHAPTER 10; OF EFFECTUAL CALLING Para 1

"Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:.." CHAPTER 10; OF EFFECTUAL CALLING Para 4

Are you so blind that you can not see what is right in front of you, If God has decreed all things does that not mean all things. If God has selected a small group to be saved and all others have no chance to be saved then that means they are condemned to hell for no other reason than He chose to do so. And that is what your LBCF says that He does.

That is what your theology requires, well that is unless you say you don't agree with the LBCF in which case I would have to ask what you do believe. And as I said those that are in hell are there because they chose to reject Christ Jesus of their own God given free will.

So those people are in hell by choice not by compulsion, that is a big big difference. God did not elect a select group to save before creation. Now I know that you will disagree and that's fine we can talk about that but what you cannot deny is what the LBCF says as I have highlighted above. It is hard to deny that the text says "Others not elected...therefore cannot be saved" Now since you calvinists say only the elect will be saved that means that all the others are condemned and remember this was before any of us were born.

So like it or not it is your theology that has God sending billions to hell just because He decided not to elect them which He could have done.

A multitude that no man can number is not a "small group"
Millions go to hell because they love sin.
God could not have saved one more person or one less person than His perfect plan and purpose saves.
Free will is a philosophical falsehood that does not exist.It is not God given.
You have been shown that these objections are useless many times but cling to such errors.
You mention the 1689 but chop it up and reword it to pervert the meaning.
Quote whole sentences as they were written.
Those carefully worded statements were written by design.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."[John 5:40]

Jesus told this to the Jews who were seeking to kill Him. Earlier He had healed the man who sat daily at a pool in Bethesda. They saw him carrying his pallet and castigated him for carrying it on the Sabbath. When he found out it was Jesus who told him to "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk", he told them it was Jesus, that was the reason why they sought to persecute Him. When He made Himself equal with God by saying, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”, they sought all the more to kill Him.

These are they very folk He stated "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life'" Notice that there was nothing holding them back physically from coming to Him. Granted, there were several times that they sought to kill Him, yet the Father would not allow it as it was not yet time for His crucifixion. But that statement is in regards to coming to Him for eternal life. Nothing physically held them back from coming to Him to gain eternal life. No one stood in their way of doing this. It was their hearts that precluded them from coming to Him for eternal life. And no amount of exerting their will would have caused them to come to Him for eternal life, seeing So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16]
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Please explain how I could abolish "irresistible grace" since there is no such thing. That is just something that calvinists made up so they could prop up a bad theology.[/QUOTE}
On the contrary, Irresistible Grace is the most blessed of doctrines, since, contrary to your misunderstanding, it shows that God loves people enough to save them.
In case you missed it:

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass .." LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE
You should quote fully or not at all.
"......Yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, nor has fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established, in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His Decree."

That God decrees all things is so clearly taught in Scripture that it can only be your stubbornness that causes you to deny it.

But you have not explained how the great crowd of Revelation 7 gets smaller under your system of theology. Or do the billions still end up in hell? It's a simple question; surely you know the answer?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I find this post fascinating. Are you saying that God has not sent billions to hell? If so, why are you accusing Calvinism of doing so if in fact they are not there? If not, and indeed the billions are languishing there, if (God forbid!) Arminianism is true, then it is your theology that has condemned all those billions, not mine and not @AustinC's, since you have abolished Irresistible Grace..

But in fact, whether Calvinism or Arminianism is true, there is a vast crowd, so huge that no one can count it, destined for heaven (Revelation 7:9). Would you care to explain how the crowd gets bigger if Arminianism is correct?

No where in scripture is irresistible Grace even mentioned. This doctrine is based on the question "Who has resisted his will" The The passage never says anyone has although it doesn't say they can' either.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
An entire doctrine based on one verse. A question that is left unanswered.
Pharaoh resisted God. Jonah resisted God. Salomon resisted God everyone who sins, resist God. The Jews reject God's Son this was resistance at the maximum. This is how wrong irresistible Grace really is. It's entirely based on a question..
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
"and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."[John 5:40]

Jesus told this to the Jews who were seeking to kill Him. Earlier He had healed the man who sat daily at a pool in Bethesda. They saw him carrying his pallet and castigated him for carrying it on the Sabbath. When he found out it was Jesus who told him to "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk", he told them it was Jesus, that was the reason why they sought to persecute Him. When He made Himself equal with God by saying, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”, they sought all the more to kill Him.

These are they very folk He stated "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life'" Notice that there was nothing holding them back physically from coming to Him. Granted, there were several times that they sought to kill Him, yet the Father would not allow it as it was not yet time for His crucifixion. But that statement is in regards to coming to Him for eternal life. Nothing physically held them back from coming to Him to gain eternal life. No one stood in their way of doing this. It was their hearts that precluded them from coming to Him for eternal life. And no amount of exerting their will would have caused them to come to Him for eternal life, seeing So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16]

Unwillingness is resistance. When it comes to Salvation it doesn't depend on the man but God. He has already said all who call on His name will be saved. It is God's will to save those who believe. Can you name any who have believed and were not saved?
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
MB admitted that he heard the Word of God and then responded. He doesn't seem to understand that his experience is precisely what any Calvinist/Reformed Christian recognizes as God's Sovereign election. MB's own words show his contempt is misplaced due to his own misunderstanding.

So you are suggesting that I am resisting God. While you don't believe it's possible, aren't you amazed? Every Christian has heard the word of God. How else could he ever have any hope. I've heard the word of God all of my life. I was raised in a Baptist church and I was 14 when I accepted Christ. Calvinist have disagreed with my Salvation arguing that I didn't have anything to do with it. I was there I know what Happened. Calvinist can't accept that I was saved. Now all of a sudden you try and claim that you agree with what I've said all along. But I do not agree with your doctrines. They are as false as they can get.
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
A multitude that no man can number is not a "small group"
Millions go to hell because they love sin.
God could not have saved one more person or one less person than His perfect plan and purpose saves.
Free will is a philosophical falsehood that does not exist.It is not God given.
You have been shown that these objections are useless many times but cling to such errors.
You mention the 1689 but chop it up and reword it to pervert the meaning.
Quote whole sentences as they were written.
Those carefully worded statements were written by design.
Not true to your doctrine. You've told me that they go to hell because God didn't choose them.
MB
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
"and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."[John 5:40]

Jesus told this to the Jews who were seeking to kill Him. Earlier He had healed the man who sat daily at a pool in Bethesda. They saw him carrying his pallet and castigated him for carrying it on the Sabbath. When he found out it was Jesus who told him to "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk", he told them it was Jesus, that was the reason why they sought to persecute Him. When He made Himself equal with God by saying, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”, they sought all the more to kill Him.

These are they very folk He stated "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life'" Notice that there was nothing holding them back physically from coming to Him. Granted, there were several times that they sought to kill Him, yet the Father would not allow it as it was not yet time for His crucifixion. But that statement is in regards to coming to Him for eternal life. Nothing physically held them back from coming to Him to gain eternal life. No one stood in their way of doing this. It was their hearts that precluded them from coming to Him for eternal life. And no amount of exerting their will would have caused them to come to Him for eternal life, seeing So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16]
Indeed, all humans are unwilling. This is why God must will, choose and elect by his Supreme authority.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Not true to your doctrine. You've told me that they go to hell because God didn't choose them.
MB
Wrong.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"The wages of sin is death."
People enter hell by their merited law-breaking. All humanity is justly condemned. Yet, God chooses to grant mercy to whom he wills. He does this by His Supreme authority. Do you hate God for doing what He has the right to do?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
"and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."[John 5:4
The Jews resisted Christ.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
MB
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
So you are suggesting that I am resisting God. While you don't believe it's possible, aren't you amazed? Every Christian has heard the word of God. How else could he ever have any hope. I've heard the word of God all of my life. I was raised in a Baptist church and I was 14 when I accepted Christ. Calvinist have disagreed with my Salvation arguing that I didn't have anything to do with it. I was there I know what Happened. Calvinist can't accept that I was saved. Now all of a sudden you try and claim that you agree with what I've said all along. But I do not agree with your doctrines. They are as false as they can get.
MB
I am saying that you, yourself, admitted that you heard the word of God first, then you confessed with your mouth and believed in your heart.

You agree with Reformed theology (Calvinism). Yet, somehow you cannot stand the very thing you confirmed.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
mb

No where in scripture is irresistible Grace even mentioned.

Not in such wording, however its Illustrated, for one Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This drawing is irresistible.

The effectual call of grace 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This call is effectual, irresistible , in that it calls a person out of darkness and into Gods marvellous light.

Its the call of grace as Paul experienced Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Its irresistible grace here Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

What makes them willing but the power of Gods Grace
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
The Jews resisted Christ.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
MB
Thats what all men do without grace.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Wrong.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"The wages of sin is death."
People enter hell by their merited law-breaking. All humanity is justly condemned. Yet, God chooses to grant mercy to whom he wills. He does this by His Supreme authority. Do you hate God for doing what He has the right to do?

No I do not hate God. What gives you the right to ask such an ignorant question. How ever God has already granted repentance to the Gentiles whether chosen or not. Do you hate God? because you keep misrepresenting His word. You really should just give up because you have no idea what you are talking about.
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Thats what all men do without grace.

Wrong again. You condemn all men, Like you have that authority. Exactly what the accuser does, He accuses, whether guilty or not.
It was the Jews who rejected there messiah. Gentiles didn't have a messiah at the time

Totally non biblical nonsense is all that comes from your ignorant post.

Exactly, that's why scripture teaches total inability of man spiritually, it sets the stage and foundation on why Salvation is 100% of Gods Grace
.
Prove the Bible teaches inability. and that it's total
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Let's see the natural will of man:

Romans 1:18,21-23, 28-31For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.


Romans 3:10-18 As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 7:18-20 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Romans 8:6-8 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 9:8,14-16,27-28 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”


Romans 11:6-8 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Much more can be shared, yet Paul's letter to the Romans is enough to show that humans, in their flesh, will never bend their knee to God's Sovereign Lordship.
Ironic as it may be the first of these passages is pointing directly at you in that you try to suppress the truth. No worries I'll do my best to show your deceptions.
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Was Israel chosen by God? Was Solomon chosen by God to be the King of Israel?

MB, it is amazing how little you understand about God's Sovereign election starting with Adam and Eve, then moving into the various Covenants God made with specific people. If you understood, you would not be so perplexed.
Understanding a myth is easy. Myths are false. Like your doctrine is false..You aply to your self what is said to Israel
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
MB, When do you think you will give up your myth, since no Calvinist has ever said what Silverhair has said.

You wish all you want to Austin. As long as I'm alive I will dispute you and your false doctrine.
MB
 

MB

Well-Known Member
"and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."[John 5:40]

Jesus told this to the Jews who were seeking to kill Him. Earlier He had healed the man who sat daily at a pool in Bethesda. They saw him carrying his pallet and castigated him for carrying it on the Sabbath. When he found out it was Jesus who told him to "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk", he told them it was Jesus, that was the reason why they sought to persecute Him. When He made Himself equal with God by saying, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”, they sought all the more to kill Him.

These are they very folk He stated "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life'" Notice that there was nothing holding them back physically from coming to Him. Granted, there were several times that they sought to kill Him, yet the Father would not allow it as it was not yet time for His crucifixion. But that statement is in regards to coming to Him for eternal life. Nothing physically held them back from coming to Him to gain eternal life. No one stood in their way of doing this. It was their hearts that precluded them from coming to Him for eternal life. And no amount of exerting their will would have caused them to come to Him for eternal life, seeing So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.[Romans 9:16]

Notice that they were unwilling. They could have been willing but they weren't. If they can be unwilling this alone suggest they could also be willing.
MB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top