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Genuine God-Given Faith
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
The speaker is Randy Wages
KenH
Well-Known Member
"it is the gift of God" clearly refers to faith as the gift of God. A spiritually dead corpse can't have faith in anything. As a matter of fact, a spiritually dead corpse can't respond spiritually to anything. It's dead. God must give life to the spiritually dead corpse.
Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
Ezekiel 37:5-6 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
Ezekiel 37:5-6 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Once again a well known falsehood, the gift refers to faith, is presented. No mention that the Greek genders do not match thus indicating something else (salvation) is the actual antecedent.
Next we get the fiction that being "dead in sin" means unable to seek God or receive the gospel. Calvinism just poured their "total spiritual inability" false claim into the vague impact of being spiritually dead. Pure twaddle.
We are made alive together with Christ, thus when God transfers us from the domain of darkness into Christ spiritually.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, without man contributing one bit to the process. Man only believes, man only repents, man only obeys in a spiritual way after God has regenerated him.
Ezekiel 11:1-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"Salvation is of the Lord." - Jonah 2:9
Once again the exact opposite of biblical doctrine is falsely proclaimed. We are chosen for salvation through or by reason of "faith in the truth." No one is "regenerated" before they are individually chosen. No one is chosen before they existed as non-chosen people. No one receives mercy before they were without mercy. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Does "made alive together with Christ" not proclaim we are made alive after God puts us into Christ, such that we are "together with Christ?"
Did anyone say Salvation is not "of the Lord?" Nope. Did anyone say salvation depends of the man who wills or runs? Nope - salvation depends on God, Romans 9:16. Did anyone say we are not a new creation after we are regenerated after we are placed in Christ? Nope - on and on, red herring after red herring.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible says otherwise.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Emphasis mine)
Sir, this is how you quoted me with an edited version to alter the message:
"No one is chosen before they existed"
And this is what I actually said:
"No one is chosen before they existed as non-chosen people." This statement is biblically valid as found in 1 Peter 2:9-10.
When you have to rely on falsehood to defend doctrine, the doctrine is dubious.
Yes, before creation God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God" and therefore chose corporately (but not individually) those His redeemer would redeem.
Absolutely!
KenH
Well-Known Member
My poor, feeble efforts at honoring God and Christ and the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with the glory of God's teaching of salvation by His free grace. Also, and I think you know this, I was not intending to falsely quote you but simply quoting the gist of your statement, especially since you did not give the Scripture reference to which you were referring. But, if your feathers are truly ruffled by the way I quoted you, then I apologize for ruffling your feathers in that way.
John Gill takes down your argument quite well:
Which in time were not a people
"A "Loammi" being put upon them; see ( Hosea 1:9 Hosea 1:10 Hosea 2:23 ) to which the apostle here refers: God's elect, whether among Jews or Gentiles, were, from eternity, his chosen people, and his covenant people; and, as such, were given to Christ, and they became his people, and his care and charge; and he saved them by his obedience, sufferings, and death, and redeemed them to himself, a peculiar people: but then, before conversion, they are not a people formed by God for himself, and his praise; nor Christ's willing people, either to be saved by him, or to serve him; nor are they, nor can they be truly known by themselves, or others, to be the people of God: the Syriac version gives the true sense of the phrase, by rendering it "these who before were not" (Nwbvx) , "reckoned or accounted a people"; that is, by others:
but are now the people of God;
being regenerated, called, and sanctified, they are avouched by God to be his people; they have the witness of the Spirit to their spirits, that they are the people of God; they can then claim their relation to God, and are known, acknowledged, and called the people of God, by others:
which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy;
being called formerly, Loruhamah, ( Hosea 1:6 Hosea 2:23 ) which passages the apostle has in view: before conversion there is mercy in God's heart towards his elect, and so there is in the covenant of grace, and which was shown in the provision of his Son, as a Saviour, in the mission of him, and redemption by him; but this is not manifested to them, until they are begotten again, according to abundant mercy, and then they obtain mercy; having in their regeneration an evident display of the mercy of God towards them, and an application of his pardoning grace and mercy, through the blood of his Son, unto them.
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KenH
Well-Known Member
You are mistaken. Election is individual - always has been, always will be. Christ died for the sheep, for individual sheep(I guess you could use the term "corporately" if one means that Christ died for each of His sheep individually and one is considering His flock taken as a whole). Christ did not die for the goats - neither individually nor corporately.
God did not have His Son die and suffer for sins and then sit back and hope that somewhere along the line someone, somewhere will decide some how, some way to bring life to his spiritually dead soul all by his lonesome(by being smarter than others? Who knows with such a man-centered doctrine since various churches teach various means by which they erroneously believe that man can save himself). No. God is the giver of ALL life - physical and spiritual. Man has nothing to do with making himself born physically, man has nothing to do with making himself born spiritually. Salvation is not 50% of God and 50% of man. Salvation is not even 99% of God and 1% of man. Salvation is 100% of God. Period. "Salvation is of the Lord." - Jonah 2:9
The premise that all election or choices by God are individual, and none were corporate is without foundation in scripture. It is just Calvinist smokescreed.
Did anyone say Christ did not die for all people? Nope - so obfuscation.
Does God individually choose every individual saved? Yes!!
Claiming the biblical view is "man-centered" is just more Calvinist smokescreed.
Do anyone merit salvation because they are smarter, kinder, or better than other sinners? Nope - so yet another red herring...
And you need not apologize for ruffling my feathers, you should have apologized for misrepresenting my statement.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Bible clearly teaches that God deals individually with His elect. For example, God dealt so suddenly with Saul on the road to Damascus that Saul fell to the ground. With me, God spent about thirty years leading me out of Pelgianism into the true gospel of Christ as "The Lord Our RIGHTEOUSNESS".
"Hath He quicken" was added by man this is why it's in italics. The YLT says it differently.
Eph 2:1 Also you—being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Put plainly there is no quickening in Eph 2:1
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
And you [hath he quickened (from verse 5)], who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (verse 5 here>) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) . . . . [verse 8] . . . through faith . . . ."
KenH
Well-Known Member
Look at the KJV if it's in italics then it was added to the verse.. I stand by what I wrote.
MB