Saved by Grace Alone, Justified by Faith Alone

[Silverhair]

I do get it. God saves us by unmerited favor.
God does not save us because of our faith.
Silverhair, you preach a graceless salvation. You require man to do before God can act.
Finally, this thread has nothing to do with election. You bring it up as a red herring to avoid the actual topic at hand. I have seen you repeatedly go off-topic like this.
Focus.
Saved by grace.
Justified by faith.

No works. No requirements before God can...

So here again we see that you equate faith as something that merits favour. But the bible is clear on that point faith is not a work
Eph 2:8-9 " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So here is some more scripture for you to deal with.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Please note man is justified by His {Gods'} grace and that same man is justified by faith in Jesus. Now are you going to say that the man is not saved when he is justified by Gods' grace.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Galatians 2:15-16
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

There you go. If we are justified by faith and not by works, what do you propose is the other means of justification, besides faith? You can't claim works. Paul already takes that off the table.

Paul tells us we are saved by grace (at least twice) so what would you add to grace? We know from the above passage that faith justifies, so it cannot be faith that saves.
What would you require (knowing that any legal requirement nullifies grace.)?

I 100% am AGAINST being Justified by any "good works" that anyone thinks they can do to "merit" salvation. This is IMPOSSIBLE, as is very clear in the Bible

Romans 3:10-12;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Romans 11:6;

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Salvation is a FREE GIFT from the Lord, to the repentant and believing sinner. It cannot be "earned" in any way by "good works", as no human being can be morally "good" with the Lord, apart from the Grace that God Himself gives

What I do disagree with you on, is that you say we are saved by "faith alone", which removes the need to repent of ones sins before they can get saved

 

[Van]

By this logic, demons have faith.
Of course we know that is not true.

"Have believed in Christ"
This is before...
"in order to be justified by faith in Christ."
The order:
Saved by grace
Believed
by Faith
Justified

Notice the inability to comprehend the obvious? Saved by grace THROUGH or by reason of faith. Thus faith comes before being saved.

Secondly believe in Christ is the same as faith in Christ according to scripture but not this Calvinist:

Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1Ti 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Nothing means what it says according to the false doctrine of Calvinism

 

[AustinC]

I 100% am AGAINST being Justified by any "good works" that anyone thinks they can do to "merit" salvation. This is IMPOSSIBLE, as is very clear in the Bible

Romans 3:10-12;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Romans 11:6;

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Salvation is a FREE GIFT from the Lord, to the repentant and believing sinner. It cannot be "earned" in any way by "good works", as no human being can be morally "good" with the Lord, apart from the Grace that God Himself gives

What I do disagree with you on, is that you say we are saved by "faith alone", which removes the need to repent of ones sins before they can get saved

I highlighted in red the things I will correct in your thinking.
1) Salvation is a FREE GIFT from the Lord, to the repentant and believing sinner.

Notice in your statement that you place a condition onto salvation. Your argument is this:
If one repents and believes, then God will respond with a free gift.
The gift is therefore contingent upon a certain action being performed in order to receive the gift.
An example of what you are teaching is the famous experiment where a chicken had to peck at a certain button before the seeds would freely drop into the feed bin.
Question: Was the seed free when it was required of the chicken to correctly pick the button to peck in order to get the seed?

2) you say we are saved by "faith alone"

You misspoke. I have not said this. What I have stated (and it is in the title) is that we are saved by grace alone. I have repeatedly stated this over and over again. Please do not mistake exactly what I have said.
Saved by grace alone. Justified by faith alone. These are two different things. Do not lump them together.

3) the need to repent of ones sins before they can get saved

This is already addressed in point 1. You double down on your "if...then" teaching.
The example: If the bird pecks the correct button, then the free feed will come down the chute.

I ask you: Is the above example an example of grace?

My answer is no. The above example is one who receives a gift after working for it. That is not grace.
Grace is seeing a starving bird and giving it feed without it even asking for it. The act of the supplier is unmerited favor in giving the bird some feed.

Hopefully you can at least now understand how I see the difference. You may not yet agree with me, but hopefully I have been clear in my explanation.

 

[agedman]

PS Just an aside here. You see that I use >><< to mark out quotes. But I see that you and others have a different way of getting the quotes in. Do you just do multi quotes or just one quote of the post and then just cut into it.

To quote there are two ways. One is to us the little quote icon. I don't use it very often but others find it useful.

I'm a bit more old school. When you choose the reply button at the bottom of a person's post, it places the whole post in quotes with two square brackets [ the Information source ] and then at the bottom of the quote closes the quote with a /quote in the square brackets [ closing with the "/quote". ].

Typically, I copy the original poster in the brackets including the brackets and then move to the places.I want to.separate out. Hit the return key a couple times and then paste. I do that for any section. On longer posts.I also delete extrainious information to focus in on what in an responding too.

After I have separated by paragraph and bracket header, then I copy the close quote brackets and close each separate section by pasting the "/quote " including the square brackets after each partition.

That leaves me room to respond to those points I desire to address.


This seems long winded, however once you get used to highlighting and copy, paste process it isn't difficult. I'll give you a look at how it looks. All.you have to do.is hit reply and scrool.down to the bottom of this message. I used your post and ID for a visual. Just hit reply and it should show it all.

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Copy this address from the poster.
(/quote)

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Then paste it
(/quote)

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Before
(/quote)

Being sure to also close each separation, too.

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Each part
(/quote)

Remember to use square brackets not parentheses.

 

[Van]

The phrase THROUGH FAITH appears often in our English translations, since several words (dia, en, eis) are all rendered as through. Here we will focus on "dia" the Greek preposition that literally means to pass through something, but is used often to show (1) the means by which something is accomplished, or (2) the ground or reason by which something is done or not done. When we see "through (dia) faith" the idea is the reason something is done.

In Hebrews 11:39 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised," we see that the OT saints gained approval in God's eyes on the basis of their faith in God and His promises. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died to be made perfect. But an important second teachings can be ascertained from this verse, when we see "through faith" the idea is "through their faith" not faith supposedly gifted to them or instilled within them.

In Galatians 3:14 "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Here we see a result of being placed in Christ on the basis of faith credited by God, is that we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, fulfilling a promise to Abraham's descendants.

Bottom line, the resultant action of God to bestowal the blessings of salvation upon us, is through or by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Faith must precede the action because it provides the reason or basis for the action. Thus this truth is presented many times when you see "through faith" in the text.

 

[agedman]

Hoped that helps

 

[AustinC]

Notice the inability to comprehend the obvious? Saved by grace THROUGH or by reason of faith. Thus faith comes before being saved.

Secondly believe in Christ is the same as faith in Christ according to scripture but not this Calvinist:

Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1Ti 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Nothing means what it says according to the false doctrine of Calvinism

It is interesting, first, that you don't address me directly. Second, you seem to ignore the key word in the verse, which is the English word...by.
You have been saved...by...grace.
The salvation comes by grace alone.
Notice in the verses prior to verse 8 of Ephesians 2 that verse 5 tells us even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
You cannot ignore that it was while we were still dead in sin that God made us alive and saved us by grace. It whacks us in the face. Don’t ignore this verse, Van.
If, as you and others claim, we must have faith first, then that faith must be present when we are still dead in our sins. It must come from our innate selves. If faith then comes from us and not from God, then we can boast in our own faith, which chose the correct God amongst many other gods. Therefore, going back to verse 8, faith cannot come before grace or before salvation. Why? Because we are given no opportunity to boast.

Van, it is all right there in the text of scripture. Address what I am saying. Don’t talk to anyone else or claim an imaginary Calvin. It's me who is talking and it is me who is explaining the text of scripture to you. Speak directly to me.

 

[AustinC]

The phrase THROUGH FAITH appears often in our English translations, since several words (dia, en, eis) are all rendered as through. Here we will focus on "dia" the Greek preposition that literally means to pass through something, but is used often to show (1) the means by which something is accomplished, or (2) the ground or reason by which something is done or not done. When we see "through (dia) faith" the idea is the reason something is done.

In Hebrews 11:39 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised," we see that the OT saints gained approval in God's eyes on the basis of their faith in God and His promises. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died to be made perfect. But an important second teachings can be ascertained from this verse, when we see "through faith" the idea is "through their faith" not faith supposedly gifted to them or instilled within them.

In Galatians 3:14 "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Here we see a result of being placed in Christ on the basis of faith credited by God, is that we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, fulfilling a promise to Abraham's descendants.

Bottom line, the resultant action of God to bestowal the blessings of salvation upon us, is through or by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness. Faith must precede the action because it provides the reason or basis for the action. Thus this truth is presented many times when you see "through faith" in the text.

Van, can you see that the verses you have shared all show faith as coming after saving grace has been given? These are for the already believer.

I wonder if you may be having a hard time distinguishing between saving grace and justifying faith. These are two separate things that are not one and the same thing. Do you think they are the same thing, Van?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I highlighted in red the things I will correct in your thinking.
1) Salvation is a FREE GIFT from the Lord, to the repentant and believing sinner.

Notice in your statement that you place a condition onto salvation. Your argument is this:
If one repents and believes, then God will respond with a free gift.
The gift is therefore contingent upon a certain action being performed in order to receive the gift.
An example of what you are teaching is the famous experiment where a chicken had to peck at a certain button before the seeds would freely drop into the feed bin.
Question: Was the seed free when it was required of the chicken to correctly pick the button to peck in order to get the seed?

2) you say we are saved by "faith alone"

You misspoke. I have not said this. What I have stated (and it is in the title) is that we are saved by grace alone. I have repeatedly stated this over and over again. Please do not mistake exactly what I have said.
Saved by grace alone. Justified by faith alone. These are two different things. Do not lump them together.

3) the need to repent of ones sins before they can get saved

This is already addressed in point 1. You double down on your "if...then" teaching.
The example: If the bird pecks the correct button, then the free feed will come down the chute.

I ask you: Is the above example an example of grace?

My answer is no. The above example is one who receives a gift after working for it. That is not grace.
Grace is seeing a starving bird and giving it feed without it even asking for it. The act of the supplier is unmerited favor in giving the bird some feed.

Hopefully you can at least now understand how I see the difference. You may not yet agree with me, but hopefully I have been clear in my explanation.

Salvation without the sinner first repenting of their personal sins is impossible. This is what the Bible actually says

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:3

 

[agedman]

Van, can you see that the verses you have shared all show faith as coming after saving grace has been given? These are for the already believer.

I wonder if you may be having a hard time distinguishing between saving grace and justifying faith. These are two separate things that are not one and the same thing. Do you think they are the same thing, Van?

Perhaps Van is transferring my view to you.

I have held that justification and salvation are one gift expressed in legal. Terms and in eternal life terns, as such there cannot have one without the other.

Therefore, the grace is God’s unmerited favor expressed through granting faith which empowers the believers to be the child adopted child of God.

Jesus being just and the justifier would also guarantee salvation by belief one gift brought by the grace of God.

Perhaps, this thinking is frail and needs adjustment?

 

[agedman]

Salvation without the sinner first repenting of their personal sins is impossible. This is what the Bible actually says

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:3

I’m not certain that separate or compartmentalizing repentance and salvation is good.

When Saul was confronted with the Lord, is there evidence of confession by both submission and addressing Him with previous repentance?

Or was the repentance all bound up in the actions and address given by Saul?

I’m merely needing you to qualify for me you thinking a little more.

 

[Silverhair]

To quote there are two ways. One is to us the little quote icon. I don't use it very often but others find it useful.

I'm a bit more old school. When you choose the reply button at the bottom of a person's post, it places the whole post in quotes with two square brackets [ the Information source ] and then at the bottom of the quote closes the quote with a /quote in the square brackets [ closing with the "/quote". ].

Typically, I copy the original poster in the brackets including the brackets and then move to the places.I want to.separate out. Hit the return key a couple times and then paste. I do that for any section. On longer posts.I also delete extrainious information to focus in on what in an responding too.

After I have separated by paragraph and bracket header, then I copy the close quote brackets and close each separate section by pasting the "/quote " including the square brackets after each partition.

That leaves me room to respond to those points I desire to address.


This seems long winded, however once you get used to highlighting and copy, paste process it isn't difficult. I'll give you a look at how it looks. All.you have to do.is hit reply and scrool.down to the bottom of this message. I used your post and ID for a visual. Just hit reply and it should show it all.

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Copy this address from the poster.
(/quote)

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Then paste it
(/quote)

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Before
(/quote)

Being sure to also close each separation, too.

(QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2738278, member: 16797")
Each part
(/quote)


Remember to use square brackets not parentheses.

Thanks for the info. Now I just have to make it work

 

[kyredneck]

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:3

You mean Roman soldiers are going to appear out of the woodwork and kill unbelievers with swords and clubs?

Audience relevance is of utmost importance. This is synonymous with:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double. Rev 18

 

[agedman]

Thanks for the info. Now I just have to make it work

While you experience that method, another way is to highlight that portion you want to respond to, and use the “quote” button under the post. Then select insert quote(s) into the reply. I do this if I am addressing my reply to more than one poster.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I’m not certain that separate or compartmentalizing repentance and salvation is good.

When Saul was confronted with the Lord, is there evidence of confession by both submission and addressing Him with previous repentance?

Or was the repentance all bound up in the actions and address given by Saul?

I’m merely needing you to qualify for me you thinking a little more.

What would you like clarified

 

[SavedByGrace]

You mean Roman soldiers are going to appear out of the woodwork and kill unbelievers with swords and clubs?

Audience relevance is of utmost importance. This is synonymous with:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double. Rev 18

Meaning exactly what?

 

[agedman]

What would you like clarified

Often I have watched folks try to place or categorize as a to do list the Salvation.

I don’t find sufficient reason from Scripture for such.

So, that is what I need your clarification about.

I suppose to me repentance, faith, justification are all wrapped up as inseparable in salvation.

Remove any one of the three, there is no salvation.

 

[tyndale1946]

You mean Roman soldiers are going to appear out of the woodwork and kill unbelievers with swords and clubs?

Audience relevance is of utmost importance. This is synonymous with:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double. Rev 18

Preachers always told me in interpreting scripture, don't hold a verse out in space... Its "ALWAYS"... Context, CONTEXT, "CONTEXT"... "Comparing scripture with scripture"!... Words have double meanings and more... Good job Kentucky!... Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

Meaning exactly what?

You mean Roman soldiers are going to appear out of the woodwork and kill unbelievers with swords and clubs?

Audience relevance is of utmost importance.