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Soteriology 102
- Thread starter Van
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Folks, when you see "through faith" realize Calvinism claims the opposite, i.e. not through faith.
When you see "your faith" realize Calvinism claims the opposite, i.e. not your faith.
When you see Christ died as a ransom for all, realize Calvinism claims the opposite, i.e. not for all.
When you see people entering the kingdom, realize Calvinism claims they were not seeking God.
When you see those same people prevented from entering, realize Calvinism claims they were being compelled with irresistible grace.
When you see "your faith" realize Calvinism claims the opposite, i.e. not your faith.
When you see Christ died as a ransom for all, realize Calvinism claims the opposite, i.e. not for all.
When you see people entering the kingdom, realize Calvinism claims they were not seeking God.
When you see those same people prevented from entering, realize Calvinism claims they were being compelled with irresistible grace.
Here are some of the key points of Biblical Salvation.
1) “For by grace you have been saved through faith," (Ephesians 2:8) teaches our salvation is through or by reason of faith. Any faith? Nope, only the individuals faith in Christ Jesus, if credited as righteousness by God. Thus some, in their unregenerate state seek God some of the time when they put their trust in Christ.
2) The lost cannot do anything to merit or earn salvation, as our faith is a filthy rag to God. When a person puts their trust in Christ, that does not earn or merit or in any way contribute to God's gracious salvation. Salvation depends of God alone. (Romans 9:16)
3) Our faith is based on God's revelatory grace, but God crediting our faith as righteousness is a pure gift of grace. (Romans 4:23-24)
4) The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict humanity of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Thus the gospel of Christ convicts the lost of the sin of unbelief, such as John 3:18, convicts humanity of God's righteousness, even though Christ has returned to the Father, and His birth, sinless life, death, resurrection and coming judgment convicts humanity because of testimony of the New Testament. (John 16:8)
5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness. (1 Peter 2:21)
6) The call to repent and believe is simultaneous, not sequential. Two sides of the same coin. You don't believe if you don't repent, and you don't repent if you don't believe. (Mark 1:15)
7) Yes, eternal life begins when we are made "alive" together with Christ. And our spiritual eternal life is a prelude to our bodily redemption and physical eternal life. (Ephesians 2:5) (Romans 8:23)
1) “For by grace you have been saved through faith," (Ephesians 2:8) teaches our salvation is through or by reason of faith. Any faith? Nope, only the individuals faith in Christ Jesus, if credited as righteousness by God. Thus some, in their unregenerate state seek God some of the time when they put their trust in Christ.
2) The lost cannot do anything to merit or earn salvation, as our faith is a filthy rag to God. When a person puts their trust in Christ, that does not earn or merit or in any way contribute to God's gracious salvation. Salvation depends of God alone. (Romans 9:16)
3) Our faith is based on God's revelatory grace, but God crediting our faith as righteousness is a pure gift of grace. (Romans 4:23-24)
4) The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict humanity of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Thus the gospel of Christ convicts the lost of the sin of unbelief, such as John 3:18, convicts humanity of God's righteousness, even though Christ has returned to the Father, and His birth, sinless life, death, resurrection and coming judgment convicts humanity because of testimony of the New Testament. (John 16:8)
5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness. (1 Peter 2:21)
6) The call to repent and believe is simultaneous, not sequential. Two sides of the same coin. You don't believe if you don't repent, and you don't repent if you don't believe. (Mark 1:15)
7) Yes, eternal life begins when we are made "alive" together with Christ. And our spiritual eternal life is a prelude to our bodily redemption and physical eternal life. (Ephesians 2:5) (Romans 8:23)
It is interesting that not all who can affirm the five points or the five articles do so with the same understanding.
I can agree with the five points as well, but I am also not a Calvinist. The most difficult to affirm for me would be unconditional election. But even this is not hard.
I can affirm the five articles as well. They ate no less "from Scripture" than are the five points. But I am not an Arminian.
While those on this forum have agreed in a discussion that the word Calvinism can be defined as the five points this was for discussions sake. It definitely was not to define another person's views, but to provide a common starting point.
I have suggested something that may help would be distinguishing between historic Calvinism (which would exclude Baptists) and Calvinism that Baptists (like Paticular Baptists) could hold.
If you are willing, how does your understanding differ from Calvinism?
Van, thank you for directly addressing me and not addressing a boogeyman called "Calvinists."
I promise not to Snip...
God has chosen you...for salvation.
God has set you apart through sanctification by the Spirit.
God has set you apart by faith in the truth.
Do you see the connection?
This is all God's doing.
Is this a rewrite Van?
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Did I rewrite what God says?
Van, who is the author of faith?
Van, who is the author of faith?
Hebrews 12:2 gives you the answer, in case you don't know.
This boogeyman you call "Calvinism", where does he post and what has he rewitten?
Did I change scripture in my quotes? Did I "snip" the Bible or any of your words and then claim you rewrote the Bible?
When you change the word to Calvinist, do you really think the moderators don't see you are telling me that I am changing the very words of Holy Scripture? Do you think they are oblivious to your tactics?
I have addressed you directly. I thank you for giving me the same courtesy by directly addressing me.
Let me get this straight. According to your position the condition for a person to be saved is that they channel their salvation through their own, personal faith, which God either accepts or rejects.
What is the specific criterion that God has whereby he accepts or rejects a person's personal faith?
Please, just clarify my question and leave out your Calvinist boogeyman.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Jon,
As I see it, answering the underlined would result in another thread, and one in which I doubt I would participate...
Because it would make me the focus of the discussion and not God's words and His commands for us to edify one another with them, and with the Spirit that He has given to each of us as believers in Jesus Christ.
You seem to disregard what comes before Ephesians 2:8. Let us look:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
You cannot avoid what comes before.
"even when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ."
Where is the condition, Van?
Please, stop snipping out what comes before verse 8. Doing such leads to misunderstanding.
Strawman arguments flow from Calvinist defenders of falsehood like water from a fire hose...
1) Did I say "channel their salvation through their own personal faith?" Nope.
2) Did I say God accepts or rejects the faith of individuals? That is certainly what I meant.
3) Did I say scripture tells us the "specific criterion that God" uses to evaluate a person's faith? Nope
Did the Calvinist say we were chosen conditionally through credited faith or unconditionally not through faith? Nope
Did the Calvinist say your faith means your faith or not your faith? Nope
Let me get this straight - Calvinism is unbiblical. You bet...
Please stop changing the subject!!!
We are chosen through or by reason of faith.
We are not chosen individually for salvation unconditionally.
God credits our faith, not His instilled faith.
Christ died as a ransom for all, rather than the Calvinist claim - not for all.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Van, you answered my question in #2. Thank you. You write:
"Did I say God accepts or rejects the faith of individuals? That is certainly what I meant."
You state that individual, personal faith of the individual, is what God either accepts or rejects.
Therefore, it seems you reject Hebrews 12:2, that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Calvinists hurl falsehoods and insults non-stop. Calvinism rejects the whole of scripture, rewriting verse after verse till it says the opposite of what it says. Nuff said...
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Van the victim is not a good move on your part. You are the one who habitually hurls insults left, right and center. You avoid questions that are relevant to the themes of these threads.
Tell you what, see if you can put a stop on using the word "Calvinists." You use it like a curse word. See if you are able to post without resorting to that tactic.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Van, I am perfectly on point. I notice you, again, snip out the Bible. I add it back again because you cannot keep avoiding the scripture which clarifies and shows your error.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Thank you. So again, I said IN THIS CONTEXT how does it mean by reason of. You did shoddy hermeneutic work by finding a lexicon that gives a definition that supports your view and inserted it into the passage even though that is not the usage of the word.
It ALSO means: Through: by the means of. This is the proper use of that word in this passage. not by reason of. No reputable scholar puts it as by reason of for this passage.
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