Soteriology 102

[Dave G]

what does the verse go on to say?

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" ( Ephesians 1:3-11 ).

 

[SavedByGrace]

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" ( Ephesians 1:3-11 ).

anywhere here about "election to salvation"?

 

[Dave G]

anywhere here about "election to salvation"?

Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11.

Are you saying that verse 4, which tells us that believers were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world so that we would be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Verse 5 that tells us that we were predestinated to our adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself... which is according to the good pleasure of His ( the Father's from verse 3 ) will (and not ours),
verse 6 which tells us that it was done to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein ( His grace ) we were made ( we didn't make ourselves ) accepted in the beloved ( the body of Christ ),
verse 7 which tells us that we have ( not "will have" ) redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins and according to the riches of His grace ( not our works ),
Verse 8 which tells us that He has abounded toward the believer in all wisdom and prudence,
Verse 9 which says that He has made known to the believer the mystery of His will, which was according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself,
Verse 10 which says that in the dispensation ( an act of His divine providence ) of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things "in Christ" ( His people ), both which are in Heaven and which are on earth,
and verse 11 which tells us that the believer has obtained an inheritance, because they were predestinated to it, according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( and not ours )....

Doesn't give you that information?
It does me, and all I did was read and believe what is written, my friend.

What do you see when you read it, if I may ask?

 

[DaveXR650]

anywhere here about "election to salvation"?

Election is pretty clearly taught. I do admit though that sometimes a zealous Calvinist may go so far in emphasizing election that they give the impression that it's all done for you and salvation is simply you coming to the realization that you are elect. I'm not saying any of the guys here are doing this but you may be programmed to think that is what they mean. I know I was. There is a sense in which it really is all done for you-that's why we say it's monergistic. But if it's any help remember that those God predestines to salvation have to actually repent and believe. I used to hate Calvinism more than anyone before I really understood it.

 

[AustinC]

Election is pretty clearly taught. I do admit though that sometimes a zealous Calvinist may go so far in emphasizing election that they give the impression that it's all done for you and salvation is simply you coming to the realization that you are elect. I'm not saying any of the guys here are doing this but you may be programmed to think that is what they mean. I know I was. There is a sense in which it really is all done for you-that's why we say it's monergistic. But if it's any help remember that those God predestines to salvation have to actually repent and believe. I used to hate Calvinism more than anyone before I really understood it.

You stated:
"those God predestines to salvation have to actually repent and believe."

I would simply restate this by saying, those God predestines to salvation will actually believe and repent.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes. This is absolutely true. And if I were all powerful and I said "Tomorrow Dave will go to the store and buy food." It is an absolute certainty that that will happen. It would be predestined. However, it is also equally true that Dave himself has to actually go to the store and buy food for this to be true - even though it was declared beforehand by someone who is all powerful and infallible - if he doesn't actually do it it didn't happen and the fact that he certainly will does not change that. Before I understood Calvinism it drove me nuts to talk to Calvinists who would correct me every time I said something had to happen on the part of someone in order for say justification or salvation to occur. Sometimes Calvinists, especially those who came to believe the doctrines of grace from listening to the modern arguments and logic, become so precise theologically that you can't say anything without being corrected. I am thankful that I started out reading Puritans, and that I started with sermons and practical writings like Pilgrims Progress where they without exception did not speak with such precision. As a result, when I found out that the Puritans were Calvinists even though I was furious at first I was then ready to listen to some of the logical theological arguments from Sproul, White and guys like that. When you start out as a Baptist, or fundamentalist from a bible church all you know about Calvinists at first is that they are wrong on baptism, wrong on the Lord's supper, and come from churches that are largely apostate. No wonder folks get mad.

 

[AustinC]

Yes. This is absolutely true. And if I were all powerful and I said "Tomorrow Dave will go to the store and buy food." It is an absolute certainty that that will happen. It would be predestined. However, it is also equally true that Dave himself has to actually go to the store and buy food for this to be true - even though it was declared beforehand by someone who is all powerful and infallible - if he doesn't actually do it it didn't happen and the fact that he certainly will does not change that. Before I understood Calvinism it drove me nuts to talk to Calvinists who would correct me every time I said something had to happen on the part of someone in order for say justification or salvation to occur. Sometimes Calvinists, especially those who came to believe the doctrines of grace from listening to the modern arguments and logic, become so precise theologically that you can't say anything without being corrected. I am thankful that I started out reading Puritans, and that I started with sermons and practical writings like Pilgrims Progress where they without exception did not speak with such precision. As a result, when I found out that the Puritans were Calvinists even though I was furious at first I was then ready to listen to some of the logical theological arguments from Sproul, White and guys like that. When you start out as a Baptist, or fundamentalist from a bible church all you know about Calvinists at first is that they are wrong on baptism, wrong on the Lord's supper, and come from churches that are largely apostate. No wonder folks get mad.

Yep, you're speaking to a former free will fundamentalist who argued against those folks from Calvin College and could not wrap my head around what they said. All I knew was they were drinkers, dancers and partiers...except on Sundays.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. This is absolutely true. And if I were all powerful and I said "Tomorrow Dave will go to the store and buy food." It is an absolute certainty that that will happen. It would be predestined. However, it is also equally true that Dave himself has to actually go to the store and buy food for this to be true - even though it was declared beforehand by someone who is all powerful and infallible - if he doesn't actually do it it didn't happen and the fact that he certainly will does not change that. Before I understood Calvinism it drove me nuts to talk to Calvinists who would correct me every time I said something had to happen on the part of someone in order for say justification or salvation to occur. Sometimes Calvinists, especially those who came to believe the doctrines of grace from listening to the modern arguments and logic, become so precise theologically that you can't say anything without being corrected. I am thankful that I started out reading Puritans, and that I started with sermons and practical writings like Pilgrims Progress where they without exception did not speak with such precision. As a result, when I found out that the Puritans were Calvinists even though I was furious at first I was then ready to listen to some of the logical theological arguments from Sproul, White and guys like that. When you start out as a Baptist, or fundamentalist from a bible church all you know about Calvinists at first is that they are wrong on baptism, wrong on the Lord's supper, and come from churches that are largely apostate. No wonder folks get mad.

The really fun times are when Calvinist Baptists like myself engage in discussion with staunch Prebie reformed brethren, as they barely tolerate us as being reformed at all!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yep, you're speaking to a former free will fundamentalist who argued against those folks from Calvin College and could not wrap my head around what they said. All I knew was they were drinkers, dancers and partiers...except on Sundays.

Loved it when had to sign agreement could not attend movies, and yet could cable in porno if desired?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You stated:
"those God predestines to salvation have to actually repent and believe."

I would simply restate this by saying, those God predestines to salvation will actually believe and repent.

It is actually a command though (Mark 1:15; Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38; 17:30).

 

[AustinC]

It is actually a command though (Mark 1:15; Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38; 17:30).

It is a command that the reconciled person will do.
Here we must determine cause and effect.
What does the Bible teach?
1) Cause=Repentance and Belief
Effect=God moves to save you.

2) Cause=God makes you alive with Christ
Effect=Repentance and Belief

Let the conversation commence.

 

[DaveXR650]

I admit I have no theological training so I'm probably over my head here but I say it doesn't matter. The reason I say that is how long after repenting and believing would you have to wait before God saves you? And if it turns out that God makes you alive first how long would you go on without repenting and believing? I tend to go with 2 but I see how someone could choose 1 also.

 

[37818]

I admit I have no theological training so I'm probably over my head here but I say it doesn't matter. The reason I say that is how long after repenting and believing would you have to wait before God saves you? And if it turns out that God makes you alive first how long would you go on without repenting and believing? I tend to go with 2 but I see how someone could choose 1 also.

Question. Where in the written word of God is the call for repentance said to be any part of the gospel? Prior but not a part of it. Mark 1:15.

 

[DaveXR650]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Does that mean you are in agreement with no. 1 above? Repent and then believe the gospel?

 

[Van]

Here's the passage:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-14 (ESV)
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-14 (NLT)
So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. Believers Should Stand Firm As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth. He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think the NLT is the original reading?
In any case, notice that God is the cause and our response is the effect.

Where are all the Greek grammar experts? Neither of these versions reflects the grammar of the inspired text.

 

[Van]

would you guys stop abusing the Bible! WHERE in either of these passages that are MISUSED by the reformed, say that anyone is "elected", that is, "born-again" BEFORE they repent and believe? [Snip]

Elected means chosen by God, born anew refers to our spiritual birth in Christ to eternal life. Election for salvation results in being transferred into Christ, undergoing the circumcision of Christ and arising in Christ a new creation, born anew.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:8 NASB
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this salvation is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Greek construction of "though faith" is "dia pisteos." The preposition "dia" has the instrumentality meanings of "by means of" and "by reason of" and "because of." Calvinism claims the meaning of the phrase is "not through faith" or the opposite of what scripture teaches. But for those who believe scripture means what it says, then faith provides either the means by which we are saved or faith is the reason for which we were saved. The second meaning is the correct one, as the means by which we are saved is the precious blood of Christ.

Romans 4:23-24 teaches God will credit the faith of those who believe - God raised Jesus from the dead - for the believer's benefit. Some deny that benefit is salvation, but it would be absurd to say God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Here are some of the key points of Biblical Salvation.

1) “For by grace you have been saved through faith," (Ephesians 2:8) teaches our salvation is through or by reason of faith. Any faith? Nope, only the individuals faith in Christ Jesus, if credited as righteousness by God. Thus some, in their unregenerate state seek God some of the time when they put their trust in Christ.

2) The lost cannot do anything to merit or earn salvation, as our faith is a filthy rag to God. When a person puts their trust in Christ, that does not earn or merit or in any way contribute to God's gracious salvation. Salvation depends of God alone. (Romans 9:16)

3) Our faith is based on God's revelatory grace, but God crediting our faith as righteousness is a pure gift of grace. (Romans 4:23-24)

4) The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict humanity of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Thus the gospel of Christ convicts the lost of the sin of unbelief, such as John 3:18, convicts humanity of God's righteousness, even though Christ has returned to the Father, and His birth, sinless life, death, resurrection and coming judgment convicts humanity because of testimony of the New Testament. (John 16:8)

5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness. (1 Peter 2:21)

6) The call to repent and believe is simultaneous, not sequential. Two sides of the same coin. You don't believe if you don't repent, and you don't repent if you don't believe. (Mark 1:15)

7) Yes, eternal life begins when we are made "alive" together with Christ. And our spiritual eternal life is a prelude to our bodily redemption and physical eternal life. (Ephesians 2:5) (Romans 8:23)

 

[Van]

Our faith is based on God's revelatory grace, but God crediting our faith as righteousness is a pure gift of grace. (Romans 4:23-24)

Rom 4:23-24
Now not for his [Abraham's] sake only was it written [God's revelation] that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

Think about this folks, how did we benefit by having our faith credited as righteousness if we are unable to seek God and trust Christ? Every time you see "through faith" in scripture, think "therefore Calvinism is wrong."

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As this thread is rapidly heading for the ditch, I'm closing it now.