Featured Dispensationalism is a humanly contrived system that has been imposed on the Sacred scripture.

17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven. Lu 10

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12

7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer: 1 Pet 4
8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour, 1 Pet 5

 

...has nothing to do with Satan:

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man. Mk 7

???

18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mt 28

Lol, sometimes I think the dispies entire scheme hinges on Acts 1:11. 'IN LIKE MANNER' is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Satan sinned before man was made. He is the father of all sin. The angels who sinned followed Satan. Without Satan, there'd be no sin. Satan, for whatever reason, wasn't satisfied with being the greatest of created beings. He wanted to be like God, or even take His place. And who knows what Satan had promised the angels he persuaded to follow him? he tried to overthrow God, and failed, of course. Now, why God didn't simply will them out of existence when they sinned & rebelled,, I don't know, except it could have something to do with God's perfect justice.
But Satan causes man to decide to sin.

Yes, Jesus has all authority, but He's not EXERCISING it on earth right now.

 

You got scripture that says that?

I'm of the opinion that God provoked Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into The Garden.

No he's not. I'm beginning to think everything you post should be fact checked. You'll say anything won't you. Satan is the father of lies, a deceiver. He deceived Eve. Adam was NOT deceived. Adam made a deliberate choice. Period. If anyone is the "father of all sin" it's Adam:

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- Ro 5

Scripture that says that?

 

WOW. really?

I think the book of Enoch addresses more of this chronology ... that there was Creation and Lucifer was tasked with 1/3 to help the new creation ... but Lucifer decided he wanted it all .... and he wanted it "now."

Of course, Enoch isn't "canonical" ... but I don't believe that makes it false. There's a lot of incredible information in that book.

 

...neither is 'my opinion'.

 

A&E likely hadn't been there long when ole Sneaky Snake got Eve to sin, and while Eve got Adam to sin, the ULTIMATE source was Satan. He was already a sinner when he lied to Eve & deceived her.

Satan was already fallen when he deceived Eve. We don't know just when he first sinned, but it was before man was made, as God put a test of obedience before them in the form of the forbidden fruit.

And when Adam sinned, he was the ONLY man, so it's common sense that, as the father of all other men, sin entered the world thru him. But God sin ENTERED THE WORLD. Therefore it already existed, in Satan & Co.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

See anyone else called the father of sin? See anyone else about whom God had said, "If not for Satan, you'd be the father of sin"?

 

Adam failed in his role. God commissioned him to care for and grow the garden. God gave Adam a helper, but it was Adam's responaibility to protect (care) for the garden. Adam should have crushed the serpents head, but instead he sat back and let his helper bw duped while then following her. The curse fell on Adam because he was the one commissioned with a covenant and Adam failed to keep the covenant.

 

You spout this stuff with no citation. Again, do you have scripture that supports this?

Where in the scripture does it say this?

 

As I said, A&E hadn't been around too long when Sneaky Snake paid Eve a visit. He was apparently an accomplished deceiver.

Ezekiel 28:
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Obviously, that was before A&E were created.


Can you post any Scripture showing Satan first sinned AFTER A&E were made?

 

It's obvious what an embellisher you are. Nowhere in that text is it 'obvious' that "Satan sinned before man was made".

No. But it fits nicely. It maintains the continuity of the 'jealousy motif' that permeates the scriptures.

 

Do you have Scripture that says that?

 

What does all that have to do with other ideology that rips Revelation 20 out of the Bible and declare it does not exist?

Is not Daniel 9 a dispensation of God from the messenger Gabriel to give to Daniel? Should "490 years are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" also be symbolic and some indefinite time period, because dispensations are just human imaginations gone wild?

Should Israel have just stayed in Egypt for a prolonged indefinite period of time to be on the safe side?

If you reject the 1000 year timing, was the Cross at the wrong point in history as well? How much Scripture do you plan on fixing because dispensations are too much to handle?

 

Did you catch "I'm of the opinion"?

I explained my reasoning in post #71.

 

Revelation 20 is not the resurrection of the church. Revelation 20 is a resurrection of those beheaded in the prior 42 months.

The first point to establish is why there are 42 months to begin with, and is this tribulation or desolation.

The 42 months do not even start until the 7th Trumpet has already begun to sound. The 7th Trumpet would be post tribulation, as the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders in chapters 8-10 have already commenced. Why are the Trumpets and Thunders not considered tribulation?

Some claim the 7th Trumpet is the rapture, yet there is still 42 months after that point. Now I would point out the 7th Trumpet does not stop sounding for a week. That week is split in half per Daniel 9:27. That would mean the 7th Trumpet will not stop sounding even through the whole 42 months of desolation. So if any can agree on that point is the rapture when the 7th Trumpet starts or when it ends 42 months later at Armageddon? Because the 7th Trumpet is still post tribulation, but it also covers 3.5 years of desolation.

Or the 7th Trumpet is the main Trumpet perhaps sounded by Gabriel himself, but sounds in the 6th Seal, to announce the Second Coming, but then sounds as the last Trumpet after the final harvest. The 6th Seal matches what Jesus described as His only Second Coming in Matthew 24.


Jesus and the angels per several parables appear at the last harvest of souls. This harvest would take place during the Trumpets and Thunders and this harvest would be the Tribulation period. Jesus never claimed to come after the final harvest. He claimed to come after general tribulation. Tribulation has been non stop since the Cross. It was not supposed to be easy for thousands of years and then tribulation would intensify. People seem to want to view Revelation as a tossed salad with no systematic structure. So those in chapter 7 are allegedly killed in chapters later after 13. I ask why?

History shows us that Nations were prominent first in the dispensation of time, then God called out the Hebrews. And last called out a physical church. Although all 3 overlap, and the church has been called out by faith since Enoch and Noah. The emphasis was just not placed on Enoch and Noah to gather a physical church body at their perspective times. Even the Law was a type of church, but one with severe restrictions that just showed the bondage of sin, and not the freedom from sin.

Yet John points out at the end the church will be dealt with first, represented by Seals. Since the church is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Israel has always been represented by Trumpets. That leaves the Nations and the Thunders. We do not have explicit details of even life prior to the Flood, or even how life before Abraham was carried out. So how God deals with the Nations in the future is still not revealed to the church nor Israel. So why either group think they even will still be represented in the Thunders does not make sense. The wheat and tares were sown by Christ and the angels. At the most by the 144k. Satan also was responsible for the tares. So trying to place this harvest before the Seals instead of where they belong in the Thunders is wrong.

Why can no one see that Christ will be on earth during the Tribulation? And when Christ comes to earth for this time of Tribulation, the rapture will have already occurred at the point of the Second Coming. That is the point of the 5th and 6th Seal being opened.

There has to be a systematic harvest, and it cannot happen all at the same time, because we see different parables in the Gospels, and different judgments. Yet many want to combine them as a tossed salad instead of seeing them as separate points in time.

There has been one great big tribulation between the Cross and now. That is the tribulation of those days, because tribulation comes and goes, or is more intense in areas around the world. Preterist are that kind of pre-trib holders.

Then after the Second Coming is the GT. The time Jesus said would be like no other. That is when the angels are on the earth, after the 6th Seal is opened. The church should fall into this pre-trib position, because the church is taken away before the Trumpets and Thunders. The GT ends at the 7th Trumpet.

But then we have chapter 13 as a interruption of the 7th Trumpet. Even the angels, Jesus, and the 144k do not stick around for these 42 months of desolation. We only have the 2 witnesses. Even the harvesters themselves leave pre-desolation period. That only leaves those not harvested. The church is gone. The sheep and goats are all gone. Even the wheat and tares are all gone. Only those who will be beheaded and those who will choose the mark of the beast are left. So I am not sure where some think there are old and infirm, young children and mothers still left, unless they will not be redeemed and that hardened by sin, their only option is to have their head removed. Because those resurrected in Revelation 20 are those who have had their heads removed. I think the sheep and wheat harvested during the GT will be resurrected here also because they did not join the church at the Second Coming. I am not sure how Revelation 19 portrays the angels coming to harvest lost souls, nor why sheep, goats, wheat and tares, would still be around if the point of the Trumpets and Thunders could also fit a time of harvest. Those at Armageddon will be those who are left marked as hard core followers of Satan after 42 months of people choosing either to be beheaded or recieve the mark. Nor would it seem the Trumpets and Thunders happen after the Armageddon event, because some just want to switch up the chronology John gives to make their eschatology work.

Saying that all these events have always been happening since the Cross is just a different form of dispensational thinking. A generalized tossed salad dispensation is still a definition of a time period.

Also one can not separate the rapture from the Second Coming. The harvest as portrayed in the Gospels is of the living, not those harvested from the grave. I also do not think the church is in the grave, but alive in Paradise. Why not generalize the fact the dead will be raised eventually, but not all at the same time? Why not generalize and symbolize that verse, instead of letting it dictate all other Scripture? Daniel 12:2

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Those set free from sheol, Jesus called Abraham's bosom, already fulfilled part of this at the Cross. They cannot go back to make this verse say the same day, or even the same millennium. It seems many use this verse to hold hostage the interpretation of many other Scriptures. Some even to the extent that many righteous will only be resurrected at the GWT. Why? None of the unrighteous came out of their graves at the Cross to be eternally damned. How would that even work? Those who came out recieved their eternal life never to die again. Yet many want them to die again, but for what purpose. Was the Atonement not powerful enough to work on the first try? Why give some resurrection, but then claim, oops, too soon, back you go into the grave.

If there is no need for one single resurrection, since the resurrection has been ongoing since the Cross, then why not separate the judgments in the book of Revelation instead of a jumbled mess, or stating it is just different camera angles of a singular event. 42 months is a specific time period. It is not a single event. Most claim there should be 7 years, 14 years, 7 years with a 3.5 year split, who knows, because all we really see is 42 months? John gives us a separate 5 month period and then those "prepared for a year, a month, and a day".

Bottom line, to rightly divide the Word does not fit a tossed salad, but more a systematic view of what each judgment stands for and see it is not just the same time all jumbled up. John in his approach, allows God to deal with the church, Israel, and humankind on an individual basis. That is why there are dispensations. Because God does have unique ways He has dealt with His creation, even though it has been all the same from beginning to end. I think that even Jesus Christ's post Cross physical body was available since creation, because God can do the impossible. Dispensations were for our benefit, not God's.

 

Just for fun:

Messing With Dispensationalists - YouTube

 

You mean you assume it is the Pharisee's Millennium. Where in Scripture does it even mention a Pharisee's Millennium? 1000 years is not symbolism. It is never explained like the rest of the symbolism in Revelation. You really think Revelation does not explain the books internal symbolism? "The x which thou sawest is" can be found in several places. Where are we told the 1000 years is anything other than 1000 years? Oh, right, human theology. Since when is theology the inspired thoughts of God?

 

I assume you think the New Jerusalem never sets foot on terra firma either? That would be contrary to your link.

 

Not a hint?

What is this:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

Not a hint where this takes place? Is being with Christ literally with Christ or literally not with Christ? Is this a literal forum, or not a literal forum? Since the earth is literal, the camp is literal, the beloved city is literal, why would Christ be symbolic?

You do realize that John puts this after a Second Coming. I assume you will now say the First Coming was not literal, but symbolic. Jesus Christ was never born, never lived on earth, never physically died, and rose again. That is all just highly symbolic writing in 4 books full of parables and figurative writings. At least be consistent through the NT, and stop cherry picking which books are figurative and which are not.

 

??? What makes you assume that? That would be unbiblical. And there's absolutely no contradiction with what I've aleady posted.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21

...it's just that it can't be seen with the eye:

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17

...nor can it be touched with the hand:

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12