Four Unities Prove 1st Century Rapture (Continued from old thread)

[asterisktom]

I am continuing this thread only because of a few loose ends that need to be taken care of.

First, from RLVaughn:

asterisktom said: ↑

The newer edition, TKB, came out in 2016.

What changes were made from the original edition to the newer edition?

I cannot say for sure. Unlike the previous version this latest edition is completely offline. And I do not intend to buy a copy seeing that I am on the road all the time. All I know is that my piece is still in there. I hope the fixed some of the embarrassing typos and some grammar mistakes.

asterisktom said: ↑

This response has mainly to do with the silent period after the Parousia. These are some sources that may be of interest. More can be found at International Preterist Association.

Would this site be a good representative of full preterism? If so, who or where is a good representative of partial preterism?

No. For that you would have to go to eschatology.org, for one. A site I definitely do not recommend. But that site represents the "mainstream" view, that of Don K. Preston, William Bell et al. The much smaller group - the one that believes, among other things, in a literal rapture is the site I recommended above. Writers here include Ed Stevens, Ian Harding, and Stuart Russell, writer of the classic "The Parousia" (over a century ago. With a great foreword from RC Sproul).

Finally, does someone have to have a Wordpress account to access your blog?

I was not aware that you had to. Were you unable to access the site?

 

[rlvaughn]

I cannot say for sure. Unlike the previous version this latest edition is completely offline. And I do not intend to buy a copy seeing that I am on the road all the time.

I was surprised by its near complete absence from the net. And the one that does have it has a pretty stout price -- $100.

No. For that you would have to go to eschatology.org, for one. A site I definitely do not recommend.

When I plugged in eschatology.org, it took me HERE. To be clear, which view of preterism does that site promote?

I was not aware that you had to. Were you unable to access the site?

I think I have figured it out. When I click on this link in your signature
WordPress.com
I get this message:

You don't have any WordPress sites yet.
Would you like to start one?

However, I have found I can get to it via this link:
Asterisktom's Blog

Don't know if others have this problem, but if so, you might want to change the link in your signature.

 

[asterisktom]

I was surprised by its near complete absence from the net. And the one that does have it has a pretty stout price -- $100.

Quite pricy. That is why I balked at buying another one. Private publishing can be steep indeed,

When I plugged in eschatology.org, it took me HERE. To be clear, which view of preterism does that site promote?

It promotes what I call heterodox preterism (in some cases downright heretical). You can click on the top left link and it will take you to the main guy of that theology, Don K. Preston. Aside from believing in a mere covenantal change rapture he also believes that we were not saved by the blood of Christ, that Christ saved us before He even physically died. We were saved by His spiritual death (sic!) and His physical death came later.

By contrast, Ed Stevens site, recognizes the essential importance of the actual death of Christ for our salvation and that "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin."

BTW, this link is perhaps the best place to see at a glance his (and my view):
Q & A Topics

I think I have figured it out. When I click on this link in your signature
WordPress.com
I get this message:
However, I have found I can get to it via this link:
Asterisktom's Blog

Don't know if others have this problem, but if so, you might want to change the link in your signature.

Thanks. I changed it.

 

[37818]

@asterisktom,

From your closed thread, post #4 regarding 1 Thessalonianns 4:16-17.

1. Those who have died in Christ and are, at the time of this epistle, still in Hades.

Which is not true. Paul wrote the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 5:8, ". . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. . . ." And our Lord is at the right hand of God the Father, Hebrews 9:24, 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[asterisktom]

@asterisktom,

From your closed thread, post #4 regarding 1 Thessalonianns 4:16-17.


Which is not true. Paul wrote the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 5:8, ". . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. . . ." And our Lord is at the right hand of God the Father, Hebrews 9:24, 1 Timothy 2:5.

This does not follow. But, just for my understanding of what you believe, who do you think was in Hades? For the record, I do not believe anyone os there now, but that it was emptied at the Parousia.

The fact that Paul wrote the verse you cite cannot be overstretched. Paul also said that his readers were already glorified. Sometimes he used present tense to assert certainty. of outcome.

 

[37818]

. . . But, just for my understanding of what you believe, who do you think was in Hades?

Those who died lost.

From my view if 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not teach believers go to Heaven then we all have a bigger problem.

You and I may not believe in the same Christianity. The whole reason I accepted Christ was with the claim of knowing for sure about going to Heaven, based on Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. I have studied this issue over 50 years. Your arguments can be fighting words.

 

[37818]

Paradise was moved, 2 Corinthians 12, ". . . the third heaven. . . ." ". . . paradise . . . ."

 

[percho]

@asterisktom,

From your closed thread, post #4 regarding 1 Thessalonianns 4:16-17.


Which is not true. Paul wrote the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 5:8, ". . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. . . ." And our Lord is at the right hand of God the Father, Hebrews 9:24, 1 Timothy 2:5.

Question?
because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; 1 Thes 4:16,17 YLT

Is the, "and so," reference back to the means of, that is the dead in Christ rising first and being, then, joined with the living who are Christ's, as always being with the Lord?

Does being with the Lord of 2 Cor 5:6 have anything to do with, mortality being swallowed up of life. of 2 Cor 5:4? When is mortality swallowed up life? Is it not this?
1 Cor 15:22-54 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

Is the last trump when the Lord comes down from heaven of 1 Thes 4:16?

BTW I believe this is all still future.

 

[37818]

Is the, "and so," reference back to the means of, that is the dead in Christ rising first and being, then, joined with the living who are Christ's, as always being with the Lord?

If I understand your question, I believe so. 1 Thessalonians 4:14, ". . . even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Meaning the resurrected believers came with Jesus from Heaven to be resurrected.

Does being with the Lord of 2 Cor 5:6 have anything to do with, mortality being swallowed up of life. of 2 Cor 5:4? When is mortality swallowed up life? Is it not this?
1 Cor 15:22-54 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

Is the last trump when the Lord comes down from heaven of 1 Thes 4:16?

I believe so. As is trumpet in Matthew 24:31.

 

[percho]

If I understand your question, I believe so. 1 Thessalonians 4:14, ". . . even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Meaning the resurrected believers came with Jesus from Heaven to be resurrected.
I believe so. As is trumpet in Matthew 24:31.

I'm sorry. They were concerned about some of their Christian friends who had died. What had Paul taught at Thessalonica ?
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 17:3,7 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered (unto death), and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

Died and rose again out of death, king, kingdom of God. That is what Paul preached to them. Now some of their friends have dies since having heard and believed Paul and having been given the Holy Spirit. Paul, how are our friends Larry, Curly and Mo going to be in the kingdom of God? They were dead just as was James the son of Zebedee by this time.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Matt 20:20,21
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (Being in the kingdom of God, sitting with Christ in his kingdom?
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (into the kingdom of God to sit with Jesus.

Even so refers to died and rose again, the means by which those who have died will be in the kingdom and then covers how those alive will be with them.

IMHO

 

[37818]

I'm sorry. They were concerned about some of their Christian friends who had died. What had Paul taught at Thessalonica ?
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 17:3,7 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered (unto death), and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

Died and rose again out of death, king, kingdom of God. That is what Paul preached to them. Now some of their friends have dies since having heard and believed Paul and having been given the Holy Spirit. Paul, how are our friends Larry, Curly and Mo going to be in the kingdom of God? They were dead just as was James the son of Zebedee by this time.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Matt 20:20,21
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (Being in the kingdom of God, sitting with Christ in his kingdom?
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (into the kingdom of God to sit with Jesus.

Even so refers to died and rose again, the means by which those who have died will be in the kingdom and then covers how those alive will be with them.

IMHO

We who are saved are already part of God's kingdom, but it will not be the visible kingdom during the millennium. It will be it's visible kingdom in the New Heaven and New Earth, when it is fully come, Revelation 21:27.

 

[asterisktom]

Those who died lost.

From my view if 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not teach believers go to Heaven then we all have a bigger problem.

You and I may not believe in the same Christianity. The whole reason I accepted Christ was with the claim of knowing for sure about going to Heaven, based on Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. I have studied this issue over 50 years. Your arguments can be fighting words.

Wow. You are really misunderstanding me. And insulting to boot.
Forget it.

 

[percho]

We who are saved are already part of God's kingdom, but it will not be the visible kingdom during the millennium. It will be it's visible kingdom in the New Heaven and New Earth, when it is fully come, Revelation 21:27.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:7,8 ------ Would you say those two verses are pre or post new heavens and new earth?

V 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. --- What would you say ushered in the new heaven and new earth?

And what took place before Rev 20:7 ? That below ?




for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign (kingdom) to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death; 1 Cor 15:22-26 YLT

"The end," above underlined, "the end," of what? He reigns in what, where, until what takes place?

Also --- 1 Cor 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign (kingdom) of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

When will you and I be eligible to inherit the kingdom of God? Does it have anything to do with, "those who are the Christ's, in his presence"?

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Does that one have authority over ten cities today?

Will that one have authority over those ten cities until, "then -- the end"? ------- Is that when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven?

 

[37818]

Rev 20:7,8 ------ Would you say those two verses are pre or post new heavens and new earth?

In away both. The New Heaven and New Earth is in steps.
* Christ the beginning. Colossians 1:18, Revelation 3:14.
* The millennium which icludes all the resurrected and changed saved.
* Then the full New Heaven and New Earth, which is after Revelation 20:7-8 in your question. Revelation 21. Per John 3:3 and Revelation 21:27.

. . . that flesh and blood the reign (kingdom) of God . . . .

The resurrected bodies are not alive by the soul in the flesh by the blood. Rather by God's Spirit, by the indwelling Christ. See 1 Corinthians 15, two types of bodies with Romans 8.

 

[37818]

Those who died lost.

From my view if 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not teach believers go to Heaven then we all have a bigger problem.

You and I may not believe in the same Christianity. The whole reason I accepted Christ was with the claim of knowing for sure about going to Heaven, based on Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. I have studied this issue over 50 years. Your arguments can be fighting words.

Wow. You are really misunderstanding me. And insulting to boot.
Forget it.

Dear brother @asterisktom,
Please accept my apology for my offencive post. Without this being an excuse, I was totally unprepared for your view.

 

[asterisktom]

Dear brother @asterisktom,
Please accept my apology for my offencive post. Without this being an excuse, I was totally unprepared for your view.

No problem, brother. And sorry for being bristly on my part.

I am right now traveling and in places where wifi is not great. When I get settled down somewhat I hope to clarify the topic better.