Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No I put a stop because that is how it is written.
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Is salvation available?
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
did you know, that in the Original Books, and earliest manuscripts, there are not punctuation, chapters and verses? So your argument is really moot!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I did not say anything about punctuation, you did. Verse 17 shows that verse 16 is not talking about individuals. Why? Verse 17 says that the world would be saved through him, yet we know not every individual is saved. So this notion that World in verse 16 is talking about individuals is utter nonsense.
37818
Well-Known Member
Some use of punctuation does exist. For example, some of the. early mss which omit John 7:53 through John 8:11 have a punctuation mark in it's place.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the only thing that we can see in the earliest Greek papyri, are "." in places. As in P66 of John 1
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Verse 16 says the WORLD, which is either, the entire human race, or only the elect, as you probably believe. In verse 17 it says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him". where the first use of WORLD is the our planet. the second use is the same as in verse 16.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I have said that it is the entire human race. But I also said that it is a different part of the verse than who Jesus came for. Verse 17 shows world is not dealing with INDIVIDUALS.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
lets get this right. you are saying that God SO LOVES the entire human race, but then sends Jesus Christ only for the elect? So, what exactly is this GREAT LOVE that God shows to the human race, that they end up in hell, with zero option to get saved? The context is clearly salvation
37818
Well-Known Member
P66 has a mark after 7:52. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus too.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The COLLECTIVE human race. Not individuals. No God does not love everyone the same. He has a GENERAL love and gives GENERAL grace to all, but does not love all the way He loves the elect. And no, that's not me saying that, that is Scripture saying that. If God loved ALL and wanted ALL to be saved, he would give them ALL to the son. But he does not.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Start a new thread
37818
Well-Known Member
BTW @SavedByGrace it was @Reformed1689 who originally brought Luke 22:20-21 to my attention, first making the argument that the plural "you" did not include Judas. I had already knew Judas was at the table. But in my original study the use of that plural you was not at issue.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yeah as I said to him, most of his answers are his theology and not what the Bible actually says
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
It is not a "Calvinist" thing ... there is a GOOD REASON why people do not accept ANYONE's explanation that "There is none who seeks after God." does not mean "no one ever seeks after God...". If scripture means the opposite of what it says, then God has handed us a worthless book of unknowable "truth" and we have a bigger problem than "monergism vs free will". We have a God that is against us knowing and understanding Him.
That is what most are rejecting when they reject claims that "Scripture does not mean what it says." (that applies to verses containing "all men" as well as those that support monergism).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Acts of the Apostles 13:48
Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9:6-24.
Ephesians 1:3-14.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Matthew 25:34.
2 Timothy 1:9.
That, my friend, is exactly what it is to be one of Christ's sheep, given to Him by the Father.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Mark 1:15, Spoken to the Jews who were and are responsible, given their history, to repent and believe the Gospel.
Luke 13:1-5: Spoken as point of fact...except anyone repent, we shall all likewise perish...
However, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and many others teach that man hates God and will not come to Christ.
That's why the necessity of what the Lord said in John 6:64-65 and Acts of the Apostles 16:14 is so very, very important.
Acts of the Apostles 2:37-40:
" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
In verse 37 I see that the one who asked Peter that question, had already believed on Christ.
Also, did you miss the significance of verse 39, my friend?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That God only saves those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Here a Calvinist claims their doctrine is not "no one ever seeks God." Go figure
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