Featured Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ? PT 2

You have laid out a lot of material and done very well supporting your thinking.

The format of what you posted makes the reading a bit awkward form me, but that isn’t a fault, just an observation.

I like to indent a couple times so that the Scriptures stand out from my perspectives. I do that by using the box with the arrow in the lines and then when finished I hit return for another line and then the other arrow in the midst of lines.


Seems awkward to write about, but it is easy.

Your posts are usually so full of scriptures and that is wonderful!

 

Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ?
[John 1:1-5 NKJV]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS G1223 (through)

• III. of the means or instrument by which anything is effected; because what is done by means of a person or thing seems to pass as it were through the same [cf. Winer's Grammar, 378 (354)].
• 2. of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;
• b. in passages in which the author or principal cause is not mentioned, but is easily understood from the nature of the case, or from the context: Romans 1:12
• in passages relating to the Logos: πάντα δἰ αὐτοῦ(i. e., through the Divine Logos [cf. Winer's Grammar, 379 (355)]) ἐγένετο or ἐκτίσθη: John 1:3

According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.

 

In the first place, John 1:3, is in Versions like the King James, and Geneva, and Bishops, Tyndale, etc, "made BY"

In the second place, for the use of the Greek prepositon "δι", why would you consult Thayer and Strongs, and not a grammar? It is very clear to those who understand Greek grammar, that Galatians 1:1, where we have "αλλα δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος", the preposition "δια", is used to govern BOTH Jesus Christ and God the Father. Further, the original meaning of δια is BETWEEN. In Homer, classical Gree, where the use has not changed, it is used for, "by the help or working of, with one another"

In the third place, Genesis 1:1 is clear, that ALL Creation is BY GOD, the plural Elohim.

In the fourth place, God the Father says that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, in Hebrews 1:10-12. And He quotes from Psalm 102:24-28, which is used for Elohim

I have already dealt with this in my own study, and yet people cannot grasp it!

 

Jesus Christ is NOT a "unique human being", but ALMIGHTY GOD. 100% COEQUAL to the Father and Holy Spirit.

 

The only Person in all existence who happens to be Both fully God and man!

 

"By" versus "Through" misses the point of the word and the phrase and the intended meaning in John 1:3. God did not "merely start the ball rolling" as the English word "by" would imply (God is more than the active manipulator). God is not merely the channel "through" which creation came as the English word "through" would imply. God is the "PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation" ... that was my observation and my point.

I had to quote SOME translation for a reference and I chose the NKJV (because few object to the KJV and the NKJV is slightly more readable). I underlined "through" not because it was the "correct" translation (and "by was incorrect"), but because "through" in the NKJV translation corresponds to G1223 ... the word I was quoting from Thayer's about and discussing my observations.

You really seem to have a stick up your @$$ and a "taint so" negativism towards everything. I don't know if I want to waste time with you. You are not "edifying" ... you are constantly seeking opportunities for "biting and devouring" Christians.

Goodbye.

 

you simply don't understand so you get offended when you are shown to be wrong from the Bible, and then have a moan about my attitude!

 

SavedByGrace i think you should consider this. Not trying to be mean but suppose readers see it that way? Wouldn't you want to adjust so that others don't pick that up from you?

 

So...you don't believe Jesus had a 100% human flesh body?
I assume you are just arguing to be argumentative. I have followed the past thread and now this one. Ultimately this is just an egotistical pissing match you are having with anyone who addresses you.
I made my point. I will walk away because this thread is a perfect example of something being built with hay and stubble.

 

Are claiming you don’t get an attitude when shown from the Scriptures your own need to adjust your thinking?

@atpollard did very well presenting the truth, but you disagreed and became offensive.

This is a debate forum, and for the most part we all will over step even leap beyond what is an appropriate response.

The Key is, when that type of offensive posting is rebuked, do not turn on further heat. Back away and reason from Scriptures.

Now, back to @atpollard’s point.

He (imo) was correct in stating:

“According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.”
​

John does not refute Paul’s statements in the Corinthian letter nor the one to the Colossians.

 

Dude, either you don't understand the English language, or you just like picking arguments with me!

I commented on the words that Jesus Christ is "a unique human being". Unless you are ingorant of what the Bible Teaches, it is very clear, that

1. Jesus Christ is the Eternal, Uncreated Almighty God.

2. That He took upon Himself the "nature of humans", at His Incarnation, when He was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, yet 100% without any sin.

3. Thereafter, even till this day, Jesus Christ is The God-Man, fully God and fully Man, apart from sin.

4. Jesus Christ can never be referred to a "human being", as He NEVER was just a "human being", as He IS always ALMIGHTY GOD.

5. There are some from early times, who accepted that Jesus Christ is just a "Good man", (human being), in whom God dwelt.

So, instead of your arrogant remarks, you should have asked me what I meant by my words! And try to act as a believer in Jesus as you are supposed to be, and not use CRUDE language!

 

Neither you or @atpollard, have shown me anything in this thread, or elsewhere, that needs me to "adjust my thinking"

Again I point out that fact, that some, like you and @atpollard, have difficulties in grasping. That the Greek preposition, "dia", as used in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, for example, does NOT have the meaning, "means or instrument". This, as I have shown many times, is IMPOSSIBLE, as we know from places like Genesis 1:1, that GOD is The Creator. Not, GOD "through" another. I have also shown that this preposition is used in Galatians 1:1, where it governs both Jesus Christ and the Father, and therefore has the meaning of "together with", a use that dates to about 800 BC, used by Homer.

Yet people who don't seem to understand, instead of asking, will contradict or attack!

Neither does the Term LOGOS mean "the mind of God", as Jesus Christ, Who IS The Logos, is a distinct Person, from the Father, yet 100% coequal with Him. The Term LOGOS, is the Greek equivalent to the Aramaic, MEMERA, which the Jews used in their Targum paraphrases of the Hebrew Old Testament. This MEMRA is seen as being EQUAL to GOD, and as the Creator. Thus we have in Genesis 1:27

"And the Word (MEMRA) of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them" (Targum Jerusalem)

This same Term, LOGOS, was used by Philo of Alexandria, who was a Jewish philosopher, and wrote in Greek.

John was reaching out to these Jews who already understood that Jesus Christ is the MEMRA of YHWH, and is Himself YHWH.

 

I don't write to become popular with people, or even accepted. I write what I believe to be the truth as taught in the Bible. Instead of engaging with me, and showing where I might be in error, those who do not understand or grasp the deep Things in the Bible, post things that are clearly error. Anb when pointed out, they either are offended or attack! WHY the need for me to "adjust"? WHY am I being "mean", when I present what I believe to be the truth? When you have people like @AustinC, make FALSE attacks on me, by saying that I misrepresent the Greek, which neither he or anyone else has ever shown from what I write, what to you expect me to do? There are some on here who just like picking fights and contradicting others, for the sake of it. I have no problems with this, as I can handle them!

 

So, do we get our theology from one verse? If we were to only take this verse on its own, it says that Jesus Christ is no more than a mere HUMAN BEING (ἄνθρωπος)!

We are to take what the Bible says as a whole, where it is clear that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, Who, at His Incarnation became The God-Man

I am not saying that you denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, but your language is not in the Bible, as Jesus Christ is never the "unique human being"; but the Eternal God Who "became Man", when He took on Himself the "very nature" of us humans, apart from sin, and became The God-Man. We need to be very precise in what we say.

 

Your claim that Christ was not unique as a human needs adjustment.

He was not unique when compared to the first Adam yet was unique from all others including Adam. For He being fully human was not born in sin nor committed any sin.

Romans is clear that all have sinned, yet Christ who became or took on sin was yet without becoming sinful.

Believers have but a limited experience with this same phenomenon. God is in us, and as Christ we daily humble ourselves to the leading of the Spirit. One day we shall be like Him, but until then we may only submit and in that submission radiate the light He gives.

 

Yet again you don't read what I have written or don't understand and then misrepresent me

 

So, you did not post:

(bold emphasis my add)
​

Exactly how did I misrepresent you?

 

Let's put it this way. Jesus Christ was NEVER a human being. He is the Eternal God Who was manifested in the flesh and thereafter is the God-Man, yet without any sin.

Do you get this?