Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ? PT 2

[percho]

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:9,10

Did Jesus, Son of Man, Son of God, also pay tithes in Abraham, being in the loins of Abraham, when Melchisedec met Abraham?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God;
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,2,14

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: ‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’ ?[fn]
“If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”
Matt 22:41-45 NKJV

“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’[fn]
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made (?declared?) this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:29-36 NKJV

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Col 1:18 NKJV

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Rom 1:3,4

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Yes I would say a, very, unique human being, in more ways than one.

God manifest in the flesh.

 

[agedman]

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:9,10

Did Jesus, Son of Man, Son of God, also pay tithes in Abraham, being in the loins of Abraham, when Melchisedec met Abraham?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God;
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,2,14

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: ‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’ ?[fn]
“If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”
Matt 22:41-45 NKJV

“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’[fn]
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made (?declared?) this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:29-36 NKJV

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Col 1:18 NKJV

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Rom 1:3,4

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Yes I would say a, very, unique human being, in more ways than one.

God manifest in the flesh.

You have laid out a lot of material and done very well supporting your thinking.

The format of what you posted makes the reading a bit awkward form me, but that isn’t a fault, just an observation.

I like to indent a couple times so that the Scriptures stand out from my perspectives. I do that by using the box with the arrow in the lines and then when finished I hit return for another line and then the other arrow in the midst of lines.


Seems awkward to write about, but it is easy.

Your posts are usually so full of scriptures and that is wonderful!

 

[atpollard]

Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ?
[John 1:1-5 NKJV]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS G1223 (through)

• III. of the means or instrument by which anything is effected; because what is done by means of a person or thing seems to pass as it were through the same [cf. Winer's Grammar, 378 (354)].
• 2. of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;
• b. in passages in which the author or principal cause is not mentioned, but is easily understood from the nature of the case, or from the context: Romans 1:12
• in passages relating to the Logos: πάντα δἰ αὐτοῦ(i. e., through the Divine Logos [cf. Winer's Grammar, 379 (355)]) ἐγένετο or ἐκτίσθη: John 1:3

According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ?
[John 1:1-5 NKJV]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS G1223 (through)

• III. of the means or instrument by which anything is effected; because what is done by means of a person or thing seems to pass as it were through the same [cf. Winer's Grammar, 378 (354)].
• 2. of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, by means of, with the help of, anything;
• b. in passages in which the author or principal cause is not mentioned, but is easily understood from the nature of the case, or from the context: Romans 1:12
• in passages relating to the Logos: πάντα δἰ αὐτοῦ(i. e., through the Divine Logos [cf. Winer's Grammar, 379 (355)]) ἐγένετο or ἐκτίσθη: John 1:3

According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.

In the first place, John 1:3, is in Versions like the King James, and Geneva, and Bishops, Tyndale, etc, "made BY"

In the second place, for the use of the Greek prepositon "δι", why would you consult Thayer and Strongs, and not a grammar? It is very clear to those who understand Greek grammar, that Galatians 1:1, where we have "αλλα δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος", the preposition "δια", is used to govern BOTH Jesus Christ and God the Father. Further, the original meaning of δια is BETWEEN. In Homer, classical Gree, where the use has not changed, it is used for, "by the help or working of, with one another"

In the third place, Genesis 1:1 is clear, that ALL Creation is BY GOD, the plural Elohim.

In the fourth place, God the Father says that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, in Hebrews 1:10-12. And He quotes from Psalm 102:24-28, which is used for Elohim

I have already dealt with this in my own study, and yet people cannot grasp it!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes I would say a, very, unique human being, in more ways than one.

Jesus Christ is NOT a "unique human being", but ALMIGHTY GOD. 100% COEQUAL to the Father and Holy Spirit.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus Christ is NOT a "unique human being", but ALMIGHTY GOD. 100% COEQUAL to the Father and Holy Spirit.

The only Person in all existence who happens to be Both fully God and man!

 

[atpollard]

In the first place, John 1:3, is in Versions like the King James, and Geneva, and Bishops, Tyndale, etc, "made BY"

In the second place, for the use of the Greek prepositon "δι", why would you consult Thayer and Strongs, and not a grammar? It is very clear to those who understand Greek grammar, that Galatians 1:1, where we have "αλλα δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος", the preposition "δια", is used to govern BOTH Jesus Christ and God the Father. Further, the original meaning of δια is BETWEEN. In Homer, classical Gree, where the use has not changed, it is used for, "by the help or working of, with one another"

In the third place, Genesis 1:1 is clear, that ALL Creation is BY GOD, the plural Elohim.

In the fourth place, God the Father says that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, in Hebrews 1:10-12. And He quotes from Psalm 102:24-28, which is used for Elohim

I have already dealt with this in my own study, and yet people cannot grasp it!

"By" versus "Through" misses the point of the word and the phrase and the intended meaning in John 1:3. God did not "merely start the ball rolling" as the English word "by" would imply (God is more than the active manipulator). God is not merely the channel "through" which creation came as the English word "through" would imply. God is the "PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation" ... that was my observation and my point.

I had to quote SOME translation for a reference and I chose the NKJV (because few object to the KJV and the NKJV is slightly more readable). I underlined "through" not because it was the "correct" translation (and "by was incorrect"), but because "through" in the NKJV translation corresponds to G1223 ... the word I was quoting from Thayer's about and discussing my observations.

You really seem to have a stick up your @$$ and a "taint so" negativism towards everything. I don't know if I want to waste time with you. You are not "edifying" ... you are constantly seeking opportunities for "biting and devouring" Christians.

Goodbye.

 

[SavedByGrace]

"By" versus "Through" misses the point of the word and the phrase and the intended meaning in John 1:3. God did not "merely start the ball rolling" as the English word "by" would imply (God is more than the active manipulator). God is not merely the channel "through" which creation came as the English word "through" would imply. God is the "PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation" ... that was my observation and my point.

I had to quote SOME translation for a reference and I chose the NKJV (because few object to the KJV and the NKJV is slightly more readable). I underlined "through" not because it was the "correct" translation (and "by was incorrect"), but because "through" in the NKJV translation corresponds to G1223 ... the word I was quoting from Thayer's about and discussing my observations.

You really seem to have a stick up your @$$ and a "taint so" negativism towards everything. I don't know if I want to waste time with you. You are not "edifying" ... you are constantly seeking opportunities for "biting and devouring" Christians.

Goodbye.

you simply don't understand so you get offended when you are shown to be wrong from the Bible, and then have a moan about my attitude!

 

[percho]

Jesus Christ is NOT a "unique human being", but ALMIGHTY GOD. 100% COEQUAL to the Father and Holy Spirit.

I do not deny his deity?

And I stand by my post.

1 Tim 2:5 εἷς γὰρ θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς
For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, NET

 

[Conan]

You really seem to have a stick up your @$$ and a "taint so" negativism towards everything.

SavedByGrace i think you should consider this. Not trying to be mean but suppose readers see it that way? Wouldn't you want to adjust so that others don't pick that up from you?

 

[AustinC]

Jesus Christ is NOT a "unique human being", but ALMIGHTY GOD. 100% COEQUAL to the Father and Holy Spirit.

So...you don't believe Jesus had a 100% human flesh body?
I assume you are just arguing to be argumentative. I have followed the past thread and now this one. Ultimately this is just an egotistical pissing match you are having with anyone who addresses you.
I made my point. I will walk away because this thread is a perfect example of something being built with hay and stubble.

 

[agedman]

you simply don't understand so you get offended when you are shown to be wrong from the Bible, and then have a moan about my attitude!

Are claiming you don’t get an attitude when shown from the Scriptures your own need to adjust your thinking?

@atpollard did very well presenting the truth, but you disagreed and became offensive.

This is a debate forum, and for the most part we all will over step even leap beyond what is an appropriate response.

The Key is, when that type of offensive posting is rebuked, do not turn on further heat. Back away and reason from Scriptures.

Now, back to @atpollard’s point.

He (imo) was correct in stating:

“According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.”
​

John does not refute Paul’s statements in the Corinthian letter nor the one to the Colossians.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So...you don't believe Jesus had a 100% human flesh body?
I assume you are just arguing to be argumentative. I have followed the past thread and now this one. Ultimately this is just an egotistical pissing match you are having with anyone who addresses you.
I made my point. I will walk away because this thread is a perfect example of something being built with hay and stubble.

Dude, either you don't understand the English language, or you just like picking arguments with me!

I commented on the words that Jesus Christ is "a unique human being". Unless you are ingorant of what the Bible Teaches, it is very clear, that

1. Jesus Christ is the Eternal, Uncreated Almighty God.

2. That He took upon Himself the "nature of humans", at His Incarnation, when He was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, yet 100% without any sin.

3. Thereafter, even till this day, Jesus Christ is The God-Man, fully God and fully Man, apart from sin.

4. Jesus Christ can never be referred to a "human being", as He NEVER was just a "human being", as He IS always ALMIGHTY GOD.

5. There are some from early times, who accepted that Jesus Christ is just a "Good man", (human being), in whom God dwelt.

So, instead of your arrogant remarks, you should have asked me what I meant by my words! And try to act as a believer in Jesus as you are supposed to be, and not use CRUDE language!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are claiming you don’t get an attitude when shown from the Scriptures your own need to adjust your thinking?

@atpollard did very well presenting the truth, but you disagreed and became offensive.

This is a debate forum, and for the most part we all will over step even leap beyond what is an appropriate response.

The Key is, when that type of offensive posting is rebuked, do not turn on further heat. Back away and reason from Scriptures.

Now, back to @atpollard’s point.

He (imo) was correct in stating:

“According to John 1:3, Jesus is more than just the “first cause” (the source that sets ‘creation’ into motion) … He is:

1. Divine Logos - the mind of God that causes things to be.
2. The “means or instrument” through which the act of creation passes.
3. The “Instrumental Cause” that MAKES things happen - creation in this case.

This Jesus is the PLANNER of creation, the WORKER of creation and the DRIVING FORCE behind creation. The ALPHA and OMEGA continues to be the beginning and the end of all things. Creation and Salvation.”
​

John does not refute Paul’s statements in the Corinthian letter nor the one to the Colossians.

Neither you or @atpollard, have shown me anything in this thread, or elsewhere, that needs me to "adjust my thinking"

Again I point out that fact, that some, like you and @atpollard, have difficulties in grasping. That the Greek preposition, "dia", as used in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, for example, does NOT have the meaning, "means or instrument". This, as I have shown many times, is IMPOSSIBLE, as we know from places like Genesis 1:1, that GOD is The Creator. Not, GOD "through" another. I have also shown that this preposition is used in Galatians 1:1, where it governs both Jesus Christ and the Father, and therefore has the meaning of "together with", a use that dates to about 800 BC, used by Homer.

Yet people who don't seem to understand, instead of asking, will contradict or attack!

Neither does the Term LOGOS mean "the mind of God", as Jesus Christ, Who IS The Logos, is a distinct Person, from the Father, yet 100% coequal with Him. The Term LOGOS, is the Greek equivalent to the Aramaic, MEMERA, which the Jews used in their Targum paraphrases of the Hebrew Old Testament. This MEMRA is seen as being EQUAL to GOD, and as the Creator. Thus we have in Genesis 1:27

"And the Word (MEMRA) of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them" (Targum Jerusalem)

This same Term, LOGOS, was used by Philo of Alexandria, who was a Jewish philosopher, and wrote in Greek.

John was reaching out to these Jews who already understood that Jesus Christ is the MEMRA of YHWH, and is Himself YHWH.

 

[SavedByGrace]

SavedByGrace i think you should consider this. Not trying to be mean but suppose readers see it that way? Wouldn't you want to adjust so that others don't pick that up from you?

I don't write to become popular with people, or even accepted. I write what I believe to be the truth as taught in the Bible. Instead of engaging with me, and showing where I might be in error, those who do not understand or grasp the deep Things in the Bible, post things that are clearly error. Anb when pointed out, they either are offended or attack! WHY the need for me to "adjust"? WHY am I being "mean", when I present what I believe to be the truth? When you have people like @AustinC, make FALSE attacks on me, by saying that I misrepresent the Greek, which neither he or anyone else has ever shown from what I write, what to you expect me to do? There are some on here who just like picking fights and contradicting others, for the sake of it. I have no problems with this, as I can handle them!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I do not deny his deity?

And I stand by my post.

1 Tim 2:5 εἷς γὰρ θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς
For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, NET

So, do we get our theology from one verse? If we were to only take this verse on its own, it says that Jesus Christ is no more than a mere HUMAN BEING (ἄνθρωπος)!

We are to take what the Bible says as a whole, where it is clear that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, Who, at His Incarnation became The God-Man

I am not saying that you denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, but your language is not in the Bible, as Jesus Christ is never the "unique human being"; but the Eternal God Who "became Man", when He took on Himself the "very nature" of us humans, apart from sin, and became The God-Man. We need to be very precise in what we say.

 

[agedman]

So, do we get our theology from one verse? If we were to only take this verse on its own, it says that Jesus Christ is no more than a mere HUMAN BEING (ἄνθρωπος)!

We are to take what the Bible says as a whole, where it is clear that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, Who, at His Incarnation became The God-Man

I am not saying that you denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, but your language is not in the Bible, as Jesus Christ is never the "unique human being"; but the Eternal God Who "became Man", when He took on Himself the "very nature" of us humans, apart from sin, and became The God-Man. We need to be very precise in what we say.

Your claim that Christ was not unique as a human needs adjustment.

He was not unique when compared to the first Adam yet was unique from all others including Adam. For He being fully human was not born in sin nor committed any sin.

Romans is clear that all have sinned, yet Christ who became or took on sin was yet without becoming sinful.

Believers have but a limited experience with this same phenomenon. God is in us, and as Christ we daily humble ourselves to the leading of the Spirit. One day we shall be like Him, but until then we may only submit and in that submission radiate the light He gives.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your claim that Christ was not unique as a human needs adjustment.

He was not unique when compared to the first Adam yet was unique from all others including Adam. For He being fully human was not born in sin nor committed any sin.

Romans is clear that all have sinned, yet Christ who became or took on sin was yet without becoming sinful.

Believers have but a limited experience with this same phenomenon. God is in us, and as Christ we daily humble ourselves to the leading of the Spirit. One day we shall be like Him, but until then we may only submit and in that submission radiate the light He gives.

Yet again you don't read what I have written or don't understand and then misrepresent me

 

[agedman]

Yet again you don't read what I have written or don't understand and then misrepresent me

So, you did not post:

I am not saying that you denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, but your language is not in the Bible, as Jesus Christ is never the "unique human being"; but the Eternal God Who "became Man", when He took on Himself the "very nature" of us humans, apart from sin, and became The God-Man. We need to be very precise in what we say.

(bold emphasis my add)
​

Exactly how did I misrepresent you?

 

[SavedByGrace]

So, you did not post:

(bold emphasis my add)
​

Exactly how did I misrepresent you?

Let's put it this way. Jesus Christ was NEVER a human being. He is the Eternal God Who was manifested in the flesh and thereafter is the God-Man, yet without any sin.

Do you get this?