Is believing/faith a work ?3

[Brightfame52]

Is making a decision a work ?

Yes to make a decision is a work, no not a physical activity you do with say your hands, arms, legs or body muscles and mass, but a mental work, labor. Lets take for instance a person who may be on a sodium restriction, and they're in a grocery store about to buy a can of soup. They observe many different soup labels on the shelf, so they began to read the nutrition contents as it pertains to sodium. They see a can with the label reading 110 mg sodium, a can reading 220 mg sodium, and one reading 550 mg sodium, which can of soup should they purchase ? To say the least a decision has to be made. How is that decision derived ? You must think, consider , weigh the pros and cons, which all are mental activities of the mind, its mental work, it takes mental exertion effort to do this. Now so it is when its being taught that a person , in order to get saved, they must make a decision for Christ !

 

[George Antonios]

You are conditioning salvation on a persons act of believing, thats salvation by works.

Because you're using your own extreme definition of "work" as "any freewill thought" rather than the scriptural definition of work, in context, as a "deed of the law".

That's both ends and the middle of it.

 

[canadyjd]

Here is what the Bible says. I will highlight the section in red that one must wrestle with.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:4-9

The verses 4 and 5 clarify the later verse that everyone likes to quote..."For by grace you have been saved through faith."
Notice the first declaration is what God did (the cause), even when we were dead. The second declaration expands on what God did (the cause is saved by God's grace) and moves to the effect of God's gracious saving (faith responds to the gracious work by believing).
So, even when we were dead, God made us alive by His grace alone. By God's grace alone we are given faith to believe what God graciously did.
Grace causes faith as the effect of being saved.

God says it. It's not me making it up. The text tells us.

This is what I hold to because God tells us this in His Word.

Peace

A simple, straightforward answer will suffice. Our Lord Jesus commanded us saying, “let your “yes” be yes and your “No” be No”

Do you believe people are “saved” without faith in Jesus. Please obey our Lord Jesus and answer yes or no.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

A simple, straightforward answer will suffice. Our Lord Jesus commanded us saying, “let your “yes” be yes and your “No” be No”

Do you believe people are “saved” without faith in Jesus. Please obey our Lord Jesus and answer yes or no.

peace to you

Wow. The simple answer is in the text of scripture. Do you not see and comprehend what Paul tells you?
I gave you a very straight-forward answer. Why are you unable to accept what God tells you in his word?

What does God tell you?

• 1. Here is what the Bible says. I will highlight the section in red that one must wrestle with.
     
     But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
     ~ Ephesians 2:4-9
     
     The verses 4 and 5 clarify the later verse that everyone likes to quote..."For by grace you have been saved through faith."
     Notice the first declaration is what God did (the cause), even when we were dead. The second declaration expands on what God did (the cause is saved by God's grace) and moves to the effect of God's gracious saving (faith responds to the gracious work by believing).
     So, even when we were dead, God made us alive by His grace alone. By God's grace alone we are given faith to believe what God graciously did.
     Grace causes faith as the effect of being saved.

The answer is right before you.
God chooses to save whom he wills by grace. Faith is the effect of God's gracious choice to save.

How is this confusing to you?

 

[Brightfame52]

Because you're using your own extreme definition of "work" as "any freewill thought" rather than the scriptural definition of work, in context, as a "deed of the law".

That's both ends and the middle of it.

Im using the plain definition of the word work.

 

[canadyjd]

Wow. The simple answer is in the text of scripture. Do you not see and comprehend what Paul tells you?
I gave you a very straight-forward answer. Why are you unable to accept what God tells you in his word?

What does God tell you?

• 1. Here is what the Bible says. I will highlight the section in red that one must wrestle with.
     
     But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
     ~ Ephesians 2:4-9
     
     The verses 4 and 5 clarify the later verse that everyone likes to quote..."For by grace you have been saved through faith."
     Notice the first declaration is what God did (the cause), even when we were dead. The second declaration expands on what God did (the cause is saved by God's grace) and moves to the effect of God's gracious saving (faith responds to the gracious work by believing).
     So, even when we were dead, God made us alive by His grace alone. By God's grace alone we are given faith to believe what God graciously did.
     Grace causes faith as the effect of being saved.

The answer is right before you.
God chooses to save whom he wills by grace. Faith is the effect of God's gracious choice to save.

How is this confusing to you?

All those words and yet, you are unable to answer plainly.

Are people saved without faith in Jesus?

Why can’t you just say “yes” or r “no”?

I have read scripture and understand it just fine. I can answer my question plainly.

No, according to scripture, people are not saved without faith in Jesus.

Now, just answer plainly as I have, if you are able.

Are people saved without faith in Jesus?

I suspect the reason you refuse to answer plainly is that you do understand to say people are saved without faith in Jesus is heresy. So you articulate your heresy in a round about way by claiming those who believe faith is necessary for salvation embrace a “works based” salvation.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

All those words and yet, you are unable to answer plainly.

Are people saved without faith in Jesus?

Why can’t you just say “yes” or r “no”?

I have read scripture and understand it just fine. I can answer my question plainly.

No, according to scripture, people are not saved without faith in Jesus.

Now, just answer plainly as I have, if you are able.

Are people saved without faith in Jesus?

I suspect the reason you refuse to answer plainly is that you do understand to say people are saved without faith in Jesus is heresy. So you articulate your heresy in a round about way by claiming those who believe faith is necessary for salvation embrace a “works based” salvation.

peace to you

The text very clearly tells you.
People, while dead in their sins, are chosen by God and saved by His grace. (No faith required before God can save a person) Faith is the effect of God's gracious choice to save.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I have very specifically and directly explained this passage. I gave you what God says so that you would know very clearly that my position is grounded in scripture. So, if you disagree with what God tells us and how I explained it, speak up and tell me why I am wrong.
Attempting to tell me I must answer yes or no and then quoting a verse out of context to try bully me into answering as you demand is not what I must do. Instead, I will counsel you as to what God says in Ephesians 2 and tell you that God gives you a clear answer. Will you accept what God has written, even if it goes against what you feel?

 

[DaveXR650]

If by saved you mean justification the answer is "yes".
"The scripture confines justification to those who "believe and repent . 'Repent that your sins may be blotted out.' Acts 3:19. Therefore their sins were uncancelled, and their persons unjustified, till they did repent. Though God does not justify us for our repentance, yet not without it." Thomas Watson on Justification

However: Thomas Watson on Faith
"The Spirit applies to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us".

So yes you have to have faith. But if you are looking for a way to have some credit or merit on you own to make you feel at least partially responsible then the same Puritan smashes that with "by working faith in us". We don't get any credit, it is not of ourselves, yet we really do have to believe and it is not a work.

 

[Brightfame52]

Is making a decision a work ? 2

The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such, but affirm that they ascribe their salvation to their freewill decision for Christ. However this is a deception, its a cloak for boasting , its still teaching that salvation is conditioned on man, on his works, will, or decision, his mental effort at the least. He can even boast and say he is saved because of his wisdom or making a wise choice. The true believer however has been God given Faith to realize that they have been saved by Grace alone, and what God only by Grace has done, that none of their salvation was conditioned on them. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works or[my decision], lest any man should boast.

 

[canadyjd]

The text very clearly tells you.
People, while dead in their sins, are chosen by God and saved by His grace. (No faith required before God can save a person) Faith is the effect of God's gracious choice to save….?

I have repeatedly stated salvation is a work of God from start to finish. Mankind cannot earn or merit salvation, it is the gift of God. Faith in Jesus is the result of God’s work and is necessary.

A person is not brought into a right relationship with God (saved) until they respond to God’s work with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming a person is “saved”, that is coming into a right relationship with God, before they respond with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation and that is nonsense at best and heretical are worse.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I have repeatedly stated salvation is a work of God from start to finish. Mankind cannot earn or merit salvation, it is the gift of God. Faith in Jesus is the result of God’s work and is necessary.

A person is not brought into a right relationship with God (saved) until they respond to God’s work with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming a person is “saved”, that is coming into a right relationship with God, before they respond with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation and that is nonsense at best and heretical are worse.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

God is necessary for salvation. Faith is a necessary effect of God's saving grace.
I am showing you what Paul tells us in Ephesians 2. I am not making it up. As I said in an earlier post,you have to take the time to read and consider what is being said.
Look, again, at what is stated.
The highlight in red defines for us how faith comes after gracious salvation as a direct effect.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"Even when we were dead in our trespasses."

Tell me this. Did you have faith when you were dead in trespasses and sins, before God made you alive?
What does the text tell you?
Do you believe the text or deny it?

 

[canadyjd]

God is necessary for salvation. Faith is a necessary effect of God's saving grace…..

"Even when we were dead in our trespasses."

Tell me this. Did you have faith when you were dead in trespasses and sins, before God made you alive?
What does the text tell you?
Do you believe the text or deny it?

I believe God’s word. I don’t believe your interpretation of God’s word is accurate.

I don’t like to make these threads personal, but I’ll play along on your questions this time.

I was dead in trespasses and sin. I had no faith in God.

God “made me alive” equals regeneration, equals being made able to understand the truth of my sinful state and who Jesus is and what He did.

I responded to God’s work with faith in Jesus. At that time, I entered into a right relationship with God, by faith in Jesus, and was “saved” from God’s judgment against me.

You say God saves a person, putting them in a right relationship with Himself and removing the condemnation they were facing.

After that person is saved, she has faith in Jesus. Calling faith a “necessary effect” of God’s saving grace doesn’t change the fact you are proclaiming faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation; having a right relationship with God and being freed from His condemnation.

Your view is contrary to scripture, which you also clearly understand because you ignore the many passages that teach faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

It’s time for me to move on.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I believe God’s word. I don’t believe your interpretation of God’s word is accurate.

I don’t like to make these threads personal, but I’ll play along on your questions this time.

I was dead in trespasses and sin. I had no faith in God.

God “made me alive” equals regeneration, equals being made able to understand the truth of my sinful state and who Jesus is and what He did.

I responded to God’s work with faith in Jesus. At that time, I entered into a right relationship with God, by faith in Jesus, and was “saved” from God’s judgment against me.

You say God saves a person, putting them in a right relationship with Himself and removing the condemnation they were facing.

After that person is saved, she has faith in Jesus. Calling faith a “necessary effect” of God’s saving grace doesn’t change the fact you are proclaiming faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation; having a right relationship with God and being freed from His condemnation.

Your view is contrary to scripture, which you also clearly understand because you ignore the many passages that teach faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

It’s time for me to move on.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

You wrote:
"God “made me alive” equals regeneration, equals being made able to understand the truth of my sinful state and who Jesus is and what He did."

The above is not stated in Ephesians 2. What is stated is this:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
~ Ephesians 2:4-5

Notice:
1) God
2) even when we were dead in our trespasses
3) made us alive together with Christ
4) By grace you have been saved

The regeneration you state is the salvation by grace in the passage.

Later, in verse 8-9 we see that this saving grace which effected God's gift of faith (see Hebrews 12:2) is all from God so that there is no room to boast.

The text, in Ephesians 2:4-9, is supported by multiple passages in Hebrews, Romans, and the gospels. We believe only because God causes us to hear his voice and grant us faith. That work of salvation is God's gracious act that is not dependent upon a human act.
An analogy is this:
You fall off a cliff and cannot move your limp body due to the injuries of the fall. The rescue team repels down the cliff, immobilizes you, and lifts you back to safety where they can then get you to the hospital and begin to heal you.
Did they require you to have faith...and if you didn’t they would leave you on the cliff and not do what they chose to do...which was to save you from certain doom?

God does the same thing in salvation. He does not wait until we have sufficient faith. Moreso, God says we were beyond injured. We were dead. God not only extracts us from the fall, He resuscitates us. He makes us alive. That is all God. By God's grace we were saved.
How do we know this? We were dead. The way we know we were saved is that God tells us what He did and we are given the faith to believe that God did what he said he did...which is to have saved our dead selves from the fall.

You can believe what you will, but the text shows you that God alone saved you without your cooperation.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have repeatedly stated salvation is a work of God from start to finish. Mankind cannot earn or merit salvation, it is the gift of God. Faith in Jesus is the result of God’s work and is necessary.

A person is not brought into a right relationship with God (saved) until they respond to God’s work with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming a person is “saved”, that is coming into a right relationship with God, before they respond with faith in Jesus.

You are claiming faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation and that is nonsense at best and heretical are worse.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

If you say a person isnt saved, in a right relationship with God until they respond, then you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, even if you attribute their responding to the enablement of God. You are still saying a person must do something to get into a right relationship with God !

 

[George Antonios]

Im using the plain definition of the word work.

You basically confirmed my point.

 

[canadyjd]

You wrote:
"God “made me alive” equals regeneration, equals being made able to understand the truth of my sinful state and who Jesus is and what He did."

The above is not stated in Ephesians 2. What is stated is this:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
~ Ephesians 2:4-5

Notice:
1) God
2) even when we were dead in our trespasses
3) made us alive together with Christ
4) By grace you have been saved

The regeneration you state is the salvation by grace in the passage.

Later, in verse 8-9 we see that this saving grace which effected God's gift of faith (see Hebrews 12:2) is all from God so that there is no room to boast.

The text, in Ephesians 2:4-9, is supported by multiple passages in Hebrews, Romans, and the gospels. We believe only because God causes us to hear his voice and grant us faith. That work of salvation is God's gracious act that is not dependent upon a human act.
An analogy is this:
You fall off a cliff and cannot move your limp body due to the injuries of the fall. The rescue team repels down the cliff, immobilizes you, and lifts you back to safety where they can then get you to the hospital and begin to heal you.
Did they require you to have faith...and if you didn’t they would leave you on the cliff and not do what they chose to do...which was to save you from certain doom?

God does the same thing in salvation. He does not wait until we have sufficient faith. Moreso, God says we were beyond injured. We were dead. God not only extracts us from the fall, He resuscitates us. He makes us alive. That is all God. By God's grace we were saved.
How do we know this? We were dead. The way we know we were saved is that God tells us what He did and we are given the faith to believe that God did what he said he did...which is to have saved our dead selves from the fall.

You can believe what you will, but the text shows you that God alone saved you without your cooperation.

I disagree with your interpretation of scripture and mischaracterization of my beliefs.

We are talking past each other now, so there is no need to continue this conversation.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

If you say a person isnt saved, in a right relationship with God until they respond, then you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, even if you attribute their responding to the enablement of God. You are still saying a person must do something to get into a right relationship with God !

Scripture tells us we enter into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus.

There is no salvation without faith in Jesus. To claim otherwise denies the very foundation of God’s work of redemption.

We are going to disagree on this subject.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I disagree with your interpretation of scripture and mischaracterization of my beliefs.

We are talking past each other now, so there is no need to continue this conversation.

peace to you

I have not talked past you at all. I know how you are attempting to make the text say something that it does not say. I have gone through the text and explained it. You refuse to accept my explanation. That's fine. I only ask that you not tell me that I don't have biblical support for my position.

 

[AustinC]

Scripture tells us we enter into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus.

There is no salvation without faith in Jesus. To claim otherwise denies the very foundation of God’s work of redemption.

We are going to disagree on this subject.

peace to you

Faith is an immediate effect of God's saving grace.

 

[canadyjd]

….That's fine. I only ask that you not tell me that I don't have biblical support for my position.

I cannot lie. You don’t have biblical support for your position. Faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

peace to you