The Wrath of God

[atpollard]

So back on “The Topic That Must Not Be Named” (yes, that was a Harry Potter joke for those that are going to get their panties in a bunch … I liked the first book and thought they went steadily downhill, quitting after the third) there was oblique discussion on the wrath of God and whether or not the Bible actually says God’s wrath was placed on Jesus. This aroused my curiosity to do a word search for “God” and “wrath”. Here are the results:

• [Deu 9:7 NASB95] 7 "Remember, do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness; from the day that you left the land of Egypt until you arrived at this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.
  
• [2Ch 24:18 NASB95] 18 They abandoned the house of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and served the Asherim and the idols; so wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their guilt.
• [2Ch 36:16 NASB95] 16 but they [continually] mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
  
• [Ezr 5:12 NASB95] 12 'But because our fathers had provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, [who] destroyed this temple and deported the people to Babylon.
  
• [Ezr 7:23 NASB95] 23 "Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be done with zeal for the house of the God of heaven, so that there will not be wrath against the kingdom of the king and his sons.
  
• [Neh 13:18 NASB95] 18 "Did not your fathers do the same, so that our God brought on us and on this city all this trouble? Yet you are adding to the wrath on Israel by profaning the sabbath."
  
• [Psa 59:13 NASB95] 13 Destroy [them] in wrath, destroy [them] that they may be no more; That [men] may know that God rules in Jacob To the ends of the earth. Selah.
  
• [Psa 78:59 NASB95] 59 When God heard, He was filled with wrath And greatly abhorred Israel;
• [Isa 51:20 NASB95] 20 Your sons have fainted, They lie [helpless] at the head of every street, Like an antelope in a net, Full of the wrath of the LORD, The rebuke of your God.
• [Jer 7:20 NASB95] 20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched."
• [Jer 10:10 NASB95] 10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
• [Jer 25:15 NASB95] 15 For thus the LORD, the God of Israel, says to me, "Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it.
• [Jer 42:18 NASB95] 18 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "As My anger and wrath have been poured out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so My wrath will be poured out on you when you enter Egypt. And you will become a curse, an object of horror, an imprecation and a reproach; and you will see this place no more."
• [Eze 9:8 NASB95] 8 As they were striking [the people] and I [alone] was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, "Alas, Lord GOD! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?"
• [Eze 13:13 NASB95] 13 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume [it] in wrath.
• [Eze 20:33 NASB95] 33 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.
• [Eze 22:31 NASB95] 31 "Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.
• [Eze 25:14 NASB95] 14 "I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.
• [Eze 36:6 NASB95] 6 'Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.'
• [Hos 11:9 NASB95] 9 I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.
• [Nah 1:2 NASB95] 2 A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
• [Jhn 3:36 NASB95] 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
• [Rom 1:18 NASB95] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
• [Rom 2:5 NASB95] 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
• [Rom 3:5 NASB95] 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
• [Rom 5:9 NASB95] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.
• [Rom 9:22 NASB95] 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
• [Rom 12:19 NASB95] 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath [of God,] for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
• [Rom 13:4 NASB95] 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
• [Eph 5:6 NASB95] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• [Col 3:6 NASB95] 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
• [1Th 5:9 NASB95] 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
• [Rev 14:10, 19 NASB95] 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ... 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered [the clusters from] the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
• [Rev 15:1, 7 NASB95] 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, [which are] the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. ... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
• [Rev 16:1, 19 NASB95] 1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." ... 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
• [Rev 19:15 NASB95] 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

An observation from all these verses: God’s wrath is directed against those that disobey (both His people and those not his people); God’s wrath is directed against his enemies and the enemies of His people; God’s wrath is sometimes withheld or withdrawn; God’s wrath is never directed against an innocent substitute.

We know that there is an entire sacrificial system to deal with sins, but does anyone have any verse to link that to WRATH? These verses suggest that God’s wrath is only directed against the guilty who are not forgiven.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[atpollard]

I guess that another way to approach this is:

Why did the animals die under the Law in the OT?

Why was their death required?
What did their death accomplish?
(Does it have anything to do with wrath?)

 

[Van]

"Wrath" refers to a responsive action due to his or her displeasure and abhorrence with an observation. God's wrath is His response to sin, such as a deviation from His will. Since people are made sinners, God's wrath abides on them from conception. The only way to escape His wrath, is to be reconciled when we are placed spiritually into Christ. Those in Christ have God's wrath permanently turned away. Everyone not in Christ has God's wrath abiding on them. Romans 1:18

 

[Van]

Isaiah 53:4-6 indicates we are "afflicted" with the consequence of sin (separated from God and facing punishment for our sins) and that Christ "bore" our "sickness" and was punished "for our iniquity." Now many assume "iniquity" refers to our actual sins, but another possible meaning is that it refers to the consequent punishment for those sins. So rather than "wrath" substitutionary punishment was poured out on Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

I guess that another way to approach this is:

Why did the animals die under the Law in the OT?

Why was their death required?
What did their death accomplish?
(Does it have anything to do with wrath?)

Is the wrath of God active or passive?

 

[JonC]

So back on “The Topic That Must Not Be Named” (yes, that was a Harry Potter joke for those that are going to get their panties in a bunch … I liked the first book and thought they went steadily downhill, quitting after the third) there was oblique discussion on the wrath of God and whether or not the Bible actually says God’s wrath was placed on Jesus. This aroused my curiosity to do a word search for “God” and “wrath”. Here are the results:

• [Deu 9:7 NASB95] 7 "Remember, do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness; from the day that you left the land of Egypt until you arrived at this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.
  
• [2Ch 24:18 NASB95] 18 They abandoned the house of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and served the Asherim and the idols; so wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their guilt.
• [2Ch 36:16 NASB95] 16 but they [continually] mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
  
• [Ezr 5:12 NASB95] 12 'But because our fathers had provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, [who] destroyed this temple and deported the people to Babylon.
  
• [Ezr 7:23 NASB95] 23 "Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be done with zeal for the house of the God of heaven, so that there will not be wrath against the kingdom of the king and his sons.
  
• [Neh 13:18 NASB95] 18 "Did not your fathers do the same, so that our God brought on us and on this city all this trouble? Yet you are adding to the wrath on Israel by profaning the sabbath."
  
• [Psa 59:13 NASB95] 13 Destroy [them] in wrath, destroy [them] that they may be no more; That [men] may know that God rules in Jacob To the ends of the earth. Selah.
  
• [Psa 78:59 NASB95] 59 When God heard, He was filled with wrath And greatly abhorred Israel;
• [Isa 51:20 NASB95] 20 Your sons have fainted, They lie [helpless] at the head of every street, Like an antelope in a net, Full of the wrath of the LORD, The rebuke of your God.
• [Jer 7:20 NASB95] 20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched."
• [Jer 10:10 NASB95] 10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation.
• [Jer 25:15 NASB95] 15 For thus the LORD, the God of Israel, says to me, "Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it.
• [Jer 42:18 NASB95] 18 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "As My anger and wrath have been poured out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so My wrath will be poured out on you when you enter Egypt. And you will become a curse, an object of horror, an imprecation and a reproach; and you will see this place no more."
• [Eze 9:8 NASB95] 8 As they were striking [the people] and I [alone] was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, "Alas, Lord GOD! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?"
• [Eze 13:13 NASB95] 13 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume [it] in wrath.
• [Eze 20:33 NASB95] 33 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.
• [Eze 22:31 NASB95] 31 "Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.
• [Eze 25:14 NASB95] 14 "I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.
• [Eze 36:6 NASB95] 6 'Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.'
• [Hos 11:9 NASB95] 9 I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.
• [Nah 1:2 NASB95] 2 A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
• [Jhn 3:36 NASB95] 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
• [Rom 1:18 NASB95] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
• [Rom 2:5 NASB95] 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
• [Rom 3:5 NASB95] 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
• [Rom 5:9 NASB95] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.
• [Rom 9:22 NASB95] 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
• [Rom 12:19 NASB95] 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath [of God,] for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
• [Rom 13:4 NASB95] 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
• [Eph 5:6 NASB95] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• [Col 3:6 NASB95] 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
• [1Th 5:9 NASB95] 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
• [Rev 14:10, 19 NASB95] 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ... 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered [the clusters from] the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
• [Rev 15:1, 7 NASB95] 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, [which are] the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. ... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
• [Rev 16:1, 19 NASB95] 1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." ... 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
• [Rev 19:15 NASB95] 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

An observation from all these verses: God’s wrath is directed against those that disobey (both His people and those not his people); God’s wrath is directed against his enemies and the enemies of His people; God’s wrath is sometimes withheld or withdrawn; God’s wrath is never directed against an innocent substitute.

We know that there is an entire sacrificial system to deal with sins, but does anyone have any verse to link that to WRATH? These verses suggest that God’s wrath is only directed against the guilty who are not forgiven.

Inquiring minds want to know.

I would equate God's wrath with God's justice. And yes, God's wrath is only directed against the guilty who ate not forgiven.

It is, in fact, an abomination to God to substitute the innocent for the guilty (Proverbs 17:15).

The question as to whether or not Christ experienced God's wrath depends in either or not God is a liar. Foes He substitute the innocent for the guilty? Does he condemn the Righteous? Some say yes....God lied this time and poured His wrath out on Christ because otherwise He simply let's the guilty go (they deny the new birth).

The Bible, of course, says no. The problem of how the guilty are acquitted is not "God lied and poured His wrath out on Christ". The solution is men must be re-created, born of the Spirit, made new creations in Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

I would equate God's wrath with God's justice. And yes, God's wrath is only directed against the guilty who ate not forgiven.

It is, in fact, an abomination to God to substitute the innocent for the guilty (Proverbs 17:15).

The question as to whether or not Christ experienced God's wrath depends in either or not God is a liar. Foes He substitute the innocent for the guilty? Does he condemn the Righteous? Some say yes....God lied this time and poured His wrath out on Christ because otherwise He simply let's the guilty go (they deny the new birth).

The Bible, of course, says no. The problem of how the guilty are acquitted is not "God lied and poured His wrath out on Christ". The solution is men must be re-created, born of the Spirit, made new creations in Christ.

You either cannot see it, or refuse to see it, that when Jesus became the great sin bearer , he became at that moment to God the father as if he was guilty of all of our sins, even though he always still remained sinless and blamless!

 

[timf]

In Romans chapter one Paul writes that the wrath of God comes upon those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. He then gives two examples of this;

1. Those who worship the creature more than the creator.
2. Those who reject even the knowledge of God.

We can know from Genesis that there is time allowed for a "cup of iniquity" to become full. As a nation we will probably discover what the wrath of God looks like.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I guess that another way to approach this is:

Why did the animals die under the Law in the OT?

Why was their death required?
What did their death accomplish?
(Does it have anything to do with wrath?)

We read in Psalm 7:11, 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.' So God's wrath is a settled thing and it is against 'all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men' (Romans 1:18). The animal sacrifices were the means that God established so that atonement could be made for the people. Of course we know that 'It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins' (Hebrews 10:4) but they enabled God to 'pass over the sins that were previously committed' (Romans 3:25) until the true 'Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world' should appear.

It is silly to suppose that God was angry with the sacrificed animals, and therefore equally silly to suppose that God was angry with His perfect, sinless Son.. People try to suggest that those who uphold the Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution believe it, but this is just a rather unworthy ploy. What is true is that 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6) and that He has willingly borne the punishment of it and the curse that is due to guilty rebels and law-breakers (Galatians 3:13) so that God may be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:26).

 

[37818]

An observation from all these verses: God’s wrath is directed against those that disobey (both His people and those not his people); God’s wrath is directed against his enemies and the enemies of His people; God’s wrath is sometimes withheld or withdrawn; God’s wrath is never directed against an innocent substitute.

So would it be fair to argue Penal Substitution excludeds the wrath of God?

 

[kyredneck]

This aroused my curiosity to do a word search for “God” and “wrath”. Here are the results:

Wow. You put some effort into this. Thanks.

Don't know what searchable version you're using, mine is 1901 ASV and a search of 'anger of Jehovah' shows that by far His anger is towards His disobedient children. Just sayin.

30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

 

[JesusFan]

We read in Psalm 7:11, 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.' So God's wrath is a settled thing and it is against 'all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men' (Romans 1:18). The animal sacrifices were the means that God established so that atonement could be made for the people. Of course we know that 'It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins' (Hebrews 10:4) but they enabled God to 'pass over the sins that were previously committed' (Romans 3:25) until the true 'Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world' should appear.

It is silly to suppose that God was angry with the sacrificed animals, and therefore equally silly to suppose that God was angry with His perfect, sinless Son.. People try to suggest that those who uphold the Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution believe it, but this is just a rather unworthy ploy. What is true is that 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6) and that He has willingly borne the punishment of it and the curse that is due to guilty rebels and law-breakers (Galatians 3:13) so that God may be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:26).

How is the wrath of God propitiated then if no Psa atonement?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How is the wrath of God propitiated then if no Psa atonement?

It isn't.. But there is PSA so the question does not apply.

 

[JonC]

You either cannot see it, or refuse to see it, that when Jesus became the great sin bearer , he became at that moment to God the father as if he was guilty of all of our sins, even though he always still remained sinless and blamless!

I really do understand what you believe and, to be honest, why you believe it.

What you need to understand, however, is that your belief is in reality nowhere in Scripture (that is why you were unable to provide any passages that teaches your belief).

What this means is that there are countless other passages that relate to the biblical view (what is literally contained in the Word of God) that escape your grasp.

While unfortunate, this by no stretch of the imagination means you lack salvation. But it does mean that you may lack discernment (at least insofar as testing your belief against Scripture and being willing to move away from what is not written in the Word of God). This could be an obstacle in your spiritual growth as you continue your walk.

Again, I encourage you to at least try setting aside tradition, theory, and presuppositions. Try reading Scripture for what is actually written in the text. Scripture is complete and sufficient.

 

[JonC]

So would it be fair to argue Penal Substitution excludeds the wrath of God?

It does not mean to exclude the wrath of God, but in a way it does minimize Gid's wrath and it definitely attempts (again, probably unintentionally) to circumvent Christ in understanding Christ's life, death and resurrection.

It is a doctrine some Christians hold, but it is far from Christian doctrine.

 

[JesusFan]

It isn't.. But there is PSA so the question does not apply.

Only way to get around that would be to state God has no wrath!

 

[JesusFan]

I really do understand what you believe and, to be honest, why you believe it.

What you need to understand, however, is that your belief is in reality nowhere in Scripture (that is why you were unable to provide any passages that teaches your belief).

What this means is that there are countless other passages that relate to the biblical view (what is literally contained in the Word of God) that escape your grasp.

While unfortunate, this by no stretch of the imagination means you lack salvation. But it does mean that you may lack discernment (at least insofar as testing your belief against Scripture and being willing to move away from what is not written in the Word of God). This could be an obstacle in your spiritual growth as you continue your walk.

Again, I encourage you to at least try setting aside tradition, theory, and presuppositions. Try reading Scripture for what is actually written in the text. Scripture is complete and sufficient.

Do you deny that God has active wrath towards sin that must be appeased?

 

[JesusFan]

It does not mean to exclude the wrath of God, but in a way it does minimize Gid's wrath and it definitely attempts (again, probably unintentionally) to circumvent Christ in understanding Christ's life, death and resurrection.

It is a doctrine some Christians hold, but it is far from Christian doctrine.

So how does the wrath of God due and deserved to sins and sinners get appeased then?

 

[37818]

It is a doctrine some Christians hold, but it is far from Christian doctrine.

What is not the Christian doctrine that you refer to?

 

[JesusFan]

What is not the Christian doctrine that you refer to?

Jon C seems to despise the concept of jesus bearing for our sake our deserved wrath!