1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured BIBLICAL atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 21, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can you seriously not see where you are adding to Scripture????

    Romans 3:26, for example, does not actually say what you claim it says.

    I do understand your view (the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement). I also believed it most of my life. It fits nicely with secular humanism. But it stands apart from Scripture.

    I did what I am suggesting ypu do. I set aside Penal Substitution Theory, just took Scripture for what is written, and made a decision. I chose Scripture.

    But first you must understand Scripture. All of those passages you quote and then say "but it means such and such"...take those and pretend they mean what is actually written.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,828
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How and why did you change your view to the one you understand to be correct. Step by step. Unless one who understands the atonement to be a penal substitution can make the first step. One's mind is not going to be changed from that view.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Penal Substitution is the heart of the Biblical Atonement

    This CANNOT be removed from our understanding of this crucial Doctrine
     
    #3 SavedByGrace, Feb 21, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 2
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jon, that is EXACTLY what you are doing with your THEORY, when you reject Penal Substitution!

    I really cannot see how any Bible-believing Christian can either reject or try to argue against this FOUNDITIONAL DOCTRINE. :eek:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I preached a sermon (guest preacher at a Vaptist church) over the cross. The sermon was well recieved (it was centered on Christ's death appeasing God, Christ taking upon Himself the wrath due our sins so that we wouldn't.

    I felt good about the sermon.

    The next morning God had convicted me that I had relied on my own presuppositions and theories rather than simply preaching His Word.

    I bought a couple of dry erase boards and wrote down every passage that specifically pointed to tge Atonement. Then I went verse by verse, erasing any passage that did not specifically state that Christ's death appeased God, that what Christ experienced was God's wrath, that Christ's death was instead of us, etc.

    No passage was left. So I knew Penal Substitution Theory was a reasoning or theory or interpretation of Scripture rather than what was stated.

    Having studied theology as a graduate student I knew the Early Chruch (and most of Christianity) held a different view. But I rejected the idea that the focus of the cross was on a movement from the flesh (from the bondage of sin and death) as I had grew up seeing the Cross as centered on divine justice).

    So I tried to read Scripture in an attempt to understand what they understood.

    After months of study and prayer I came to accept that Scripture is more literal than Penal Substitution Theory allows.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scripture itself is not a theory (I can provide verses stating exactly my view on this topic....you cannot).

    If you remove what you feel Scripture means and just stick with what is written then you will abandon the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    then can you show from the Bible this Doctrine is not in it?
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Appeasment is not what the actual word means. The word "propitiation", is the Greek noun ἱλαστήριον, which does not mean this, when used for the Death of Jesus Christ. There is no "appeasment" in Christ's Death, to God the Father. In its use in the LXX, ἱλαστήριον, is mainly used for "Mercy Seat", and has the meaning of "a price of expiation", so, “an expiatory offering.” The LXX so translates the Hebrew verb "kaphar", which means, "to cover, conceal". But is frequent in the Septuagint and is rendered purge, cleanse, reconcile, make atonement. With no reference to "appeasing".This usage is what is carried into the New Testament by Paul in Romans and Hebrews, and John in his First Epistle (another but cognate word). This is what the Bible means by ἱλαστήριον.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,828
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2021
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    344
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So without penal substitution, what does it look like to explain the gospel to someone in a situation of personal evangelism?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One cannot prove a negative.

    We have shown you abundantly that what verses you rely upon do not display what you claim.

    That is enough.
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is enough to say you are wrong.
    One of the first definitions of propitiation is appeasement also to satisfy one offended.

    You are really grasping and gasping if you think propitiation does not mean appeasement and satisfactory reconciliation of one offended.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No problem at all.

    Just as the apostles did.

    All have sinned and do not measure up to God's standard.

    As a result all die, and after that is the judgement of God.

    Those who are believers have eternal life, those that do not face the second death as their abode for eternity.

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

    Come to the Redeemer as He alone is the Lord and Savior and worthy of all acceptance.

    ...
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No verses in the entire 66 Books of the Bible can disprove Penal Substitution.

    Bring it on!
     
  15. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2022
    Messages:
    726
    Likes Received:
    84
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What do you gather from the day of atonement. When an innocent lamb was slaughtered to make atonement for the people.

    If you do not mind. If Christ did not pay for our sin. Then how do we pay for our sins?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the closed thread, Martin made these comments to a post and I would like to respond. I have placed the conversation into what I posted indented, followed by what Martin responded indented and then my own response. Hope that makes sense.



    This is not really a presentation that I personally would consider, for should the blood be imperfect the lamb would show evidence, just as it is shown even in this day. The blood was without blemish as much as the whole lamb.


    The transferring would never taken place had their not been satisfaction in the blood offering. Therefore the "substitution" was a statement of victory of the achievement.

    [/quote]agedman said: "Wilderness" is an unfortunate translation. The scapegoat was lead outside the camp to a field and turned loose, never to be used again.[/quote]​
    The common myth is that the Israeli wandered in the sand dunes of the desert alone for decades. This just isn't true. The "wilderness" does not mean desert. The high plains area of the US is an example. It is not without grass and trees and is crisscrossed with occasional trade routes. Towns and villages are as sparse as the water.
    Colossians 2:
    15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing (having victory) over them by the cross.​
    2 Corinthians 2:
    But thanks be to God, who always leads us triumphantly (victoriously) as captives in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him.​
    I started to post from Philippians, but realized that from about the 25 verse on through out, the theme is the ultimate victory of Christ in us.

    My problem with the use of the word "substitution" comes from there being a "quid pro quo" thinking attached, along the lines such as: Christ substituted His righteous for my unrighteousness. My sin for His sinless-ness. These are just not accurate statements.

    Rather, Victorious satisfaction is much better. For by Christ bringing satisfactory conclusion by victory over "all powers and authorities" by the crucifixion, then there is no substitution needed.

    Rather, the Victorious Christ can redeem at will those the Father gives Him.
    The Victorious Christ can compel all to bow before Him.
    The Victorious Christ has no other as His equal nor has any power and authority over Him.
    This is why Romans 8 can become so precious to the believer:
    1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
    3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.
    He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​
    This in truth is the Victorious Christ.

     
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, one cannot disprove a negative.

    What has to be proved is that there are verses that can prove Penal Substitution.

    In all the threads in the last couple weeks, not a single verse has proven Penal Substitution.

    That some cling to the concept shows how they are willing to be taught a lie and propagate an untrue portrayal of the gospel.

    This may seem harsh, but after all these weeks, why is there not a single verse?

    Also, one does not base doctrine on a single verse do they?

    So, there would have to be repeated verses which display the facts of Penal Substitution Thinking, there are not, there isn't even one!
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10,454
    Likes Received:
    451
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Judging by what you and Jon have written on this, it is clear that you don't really understand Penal Substitution.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree that words have meaning. Let's look at the passages you suggest first, but my personal recommendation would be to start with Genesis 3.

    Romans 3:10.

    Romans 3:8–20 (NASB95): 8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.
    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
    10 as it is written,
    “There is none righteous, not even one;
    11 There is none who understands,
    There is none who seeks for God;
    12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
    There is none who does good,
    There is not even one.”
    13 “Their throat is an open grave,
    With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
    “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
    14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
    15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
    16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
    17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
    20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    This passages reinforces 2 important truths - firsr, those under the Law and those not under the Law stand on level ground - they are unrighteous.

    Second, by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

    Romans 3:23.

    Romans 3:21–26 (NASB95): 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Our redemption is God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. We are justified through Christ, Whom God displayedpubliclyas a Propitiation in His blood through faith..

    Romans 5:8,12.

    Romans 5:6–16 (NASB95): 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
    8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
    10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
    12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
    13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

    Romans 5:8,12

    Romans 5:6–16 (NASB95): 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
    8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
    10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
    12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
    13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

    God demonstrated His love for us by sending His Son while we were His enemy.

    We are saved by Christ's life.

    Sin entered the World through Adam, and death reigned.


    Romans 6:23.

    Romans 6:22–23 (NASB95): But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

    We have been freed from sin, and we gain the outcome of sanctification - eternal life.

    The wages of sin is death - BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

    That is how I understand those passages.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Logical fallacy.

    Rejection of the Theory is not misunderstanding the Theory.

    You have not brought up even one minor misunderstanding of the Penal Sustitution Theory of Atonement, much less a major misunderstanding.

    It is simply not in the Bible.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...