PSA In The Early Church

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, as he and NT Wright both call Psa view pagan, and makes Jesus to have "Cosmic child abuse"

BLASPHEMY!

 

[agedman]

Jesus suffered as lost sinners will ion hell, as he took upon Himself the wrath and Judgement due to us by a Holy Father, but He did not go to Hell after death, as that is WoF heresy, but did experience upon that Cross all hell entails for lost sinners!

His death was no more torturous then any by Roman crucifixion.

I know this sounds alarming, but it is never the less true.

What IS alarming is that He was totally innocent and ALL involved in the decision to have Him crucified KNEW it. This is as Peter pointed out in Acts.

As far as the "wrath and judgement due us" taken on by the Christ, please show me in the Scriptures such expression concerning the cross.

For the Scriptures surely teach that the wrath of God is stored up until that great day in which He will cause it to be poured out upon the creation.

 

[agedman]

Yes, as he and NT Wright both call Psa view pagan, and makes Jesus to have "Cosmic child abuse"

I have read virtually nothing written by Wright other then perhaps an excerpt on line.

My views came by God placing students that ask probing questions that caused me to rethink.

What better way to describe the divine wrath poured out upon the Christ then as "divine Child abuse?"

Isn't that what PSA is teaching?

Doesn't it hold that The Father, incapable of the sight of sin without bringing judgement, was obliged to express His wrath upon the Son, and therefore causing disunity and disharmony in the trinity, and therefore, God Himself sinned?

That is heretical. Yet, it is it not a common presentation of the cross?

PSA is wrong.

 

[agedman]

BLASPHEMY!

What is blashemy?

That PSA teaches that God was so incensed with the Son doing what the Father stated must be done that He determined to pour out His divine wrath upon His "beloved son" and so much so that He compelled the Son to suffer in the torments of Hell.

It sure is blashemy.

 

[JonC]

Your problem and @JonC's problem seems to be that you have made up your own 'Penal Substitution Theory' which is a caricature of the true doctrine. You have spoken repeatedly of God the Father 'brutalizing' the Son, as if He was poking Him with a toasting fork as He hung on the cross. I have never read of any advocate of Penal Substitution suggesting such a thing.

I have quoted the following definition of Penal Substitution at least twenty times over the past five or six years, and I have never suggested that it is incorrect in any way. 'The doctrine of Penal Substitution states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty of sin.'

That is not something I wrote myself; It comes, as I have repeatedly made clear, from Pierced for our Transgressions by Ovey, Jeffrey and Sach (IVP, 2007). All the quotations from the ECFs that @SavedByGrace produced in the OP are compliant with this definition, but not necessarily with the caricature being peddled by @JonC and yourself.

This is false, and the horrible thing is ypu know your post is false because we have had this discussion.

I have already pointed out that in essence Penal Substitution Theory holds that God took upon Himself the punishment we were due. This is still contrary to Scripture, but Scripture itself has very little to do with Penal Substitution Theory anyway.

The reason Penal Substitution Theory is wrong has nothing to do with the way opponents of the Theory describe it.

The reason it is wrong is it us contrary to Scripture. It produces a skewed view of the gospel.

No Early Church Father has claimed that Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us.

You guys just quote people abs add to their words ideas that are not expressed (just like you do with Scripture).

It is very evident by now exactly why Penal Substitution Theory is a theory. It is an idea read into Scripture to work out what never needed working out.

Scripture really is sufficient.

 

[SavedByGrace]

His "beloved son" and so much so that He compelled the Son to suffer in the torments of Hell.

what UTTER RUBBISH! The Biblical Teaching on PSA does not have any of this! Nor does the Evangelical teaching from the Apostles, Church Fathers, etc,

 

[agedman]

what UTTER RUBBISH! The Biblical Teaching on PSA does not have any of this! Nor does the Evangelical teaching from the Apostles, Church Fathers, etc,

Certainly the apostles and church fathers didn't teach this. That is what JonC and I have been posting from the very start.

However, you are wrong that the PSA doesn't teach this. It does.

Even on the thread some have expressed that the Christ had to experience what was due humankind, and that God's divine justice obliged Him to respond by condemning the Son.

The problem as we have been showing that is is false. It is exuberance at best in a vain attempt to stir human emotions.

One must remember that just as the OT sacrifice to that which was pure and innocent, the Lord Jesus Christ was totally pure and innocent even through to this day. He took upon Himself the sin, but this did not displease God, rather just as in the OT it pleased Him, and satisfied the demands of the Law decrees written against us.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Certainly the apostles and church fathers didn't teach this. That is what JonC and I have been posting from the very start.

However, you are wrong that the PSA doesn't teach this. It does.

Even on the thread some have expressed that the Christ had to experience what was due humankind, and that God's divine justice obliged Him to respond by condemning the Son.

The problem as we have been showing that is is false. It is exuberance at best in a vain attempt to stir human emotions.

One must remember that just as the OT sacrifice to that which was pure and innocent, the Lord Jesus Christ was totally pure and innocent even through to this day. He took upon Himself the sin, but this did not displease God, rather just as in the OT it pleased Him, and satisfied the demands of the Law decrees written against us.

This is what the Bible Teaches as did the Early Church Fathers

Penal Substitution | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is false, and the horrible thing is ypu know your post is false because we have had this discussion.

I have already pointed out that in essence Penal Substitution Theory holds that God took upon Himself the punishment we were due. This is still contrary to Scripture, but Scripture itself has very little to do with Penal Substitution Theory anyway.

The reason Penal Substitution Theory is wrong has nothing to do with the way opponents of the Theory describe it.

The reason it is wrong is it us contrary to Scripture. It produces a skewed view of the gospel.

No Early Church Father has claimed that Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us.

You guys just quote people abs add to their words ideas that are not expressed (just like you do with Scripture).

It is very evident by now exactly why Penal Substitution Theory is a theory. It is an idea read into Scripture to work out what never needed working out.

Scripture really is sufficient.

If Jesus Christ did not take our punishment on the Cross, and suffered and died for us. Then we must be punished for our own sins, as we do not have a "Sin Bearer". But 1 Peter 2:24 is very clear on this, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed". Either the sinners sins are punished in Jesus Christ as the Ultimate Sacrifice, or, our sins remain on us, and heaven will be empty!

 

[agedman]

This is what the Bible Teaches as did the Early Church Fathers

Penal Substitution | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

What are these words to mean, in your own words?

"In other words, Christ endured the punishment His people deserve in their place."
​

 

[agedman]

If Jesus Christ did not take our punishment on the Cross, and suffered and died for us. Then we must be punished for our own sins, as we do not have a "Sin Bearer". But 1 Peter 2:24 is very clear on this, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed". Either the sinners sins are punished in Jesus Christ as the Ultimate Sacrifice, or, our sins remain on us, and heaven will be empty!

Peter rightly quotes Isaiah 53 (Verses 4,5, 6, and 9) saying:

21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps:
22“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in His mouth.”

23When they heaped abuse on Him,
He did not retaliate;
when He suffered, He made no threats,
but entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly.

24He Himself bore our sins
in His body on the tree,
so that we might die to sin
and live to righteousness.

“By His stripes you are healed.”

25For “you were like sheep going astray,”
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
​

Do you see even a hint that God poured out His wrath upon the Son?
WHO was it that "heaped abuse on Him."

When He was suffering Whom did the Savior entrust Himself? (Father into Thy hands ...)

Certainly, He bore our sins - that is not in dispute.
Certainly, by His strips we are healed.

But PSA doesn't stop with this. They go on to wax eloquent that God had to have divine justice in the form of His wrath poured out upon the Son.

Such isn't biblically found in the Scriptures.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What are these words to mean, in your own words?

"In other words, Christ endured the punishment His people deserve in their place."
​

Jesus Christ took our punishment on Himself on the cross. When a sinner repents and believes in the Gospel and are born again, the punishment for their sins is fulfilled in Jesus. John 1:29 says this, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who bears the sin of the world!"

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do you see even a hint that God poured out His wrath upon the Son?

That is made clear in Isaiah 53:10, though as I've pointed out many times, God was not wrathful towards His Son, but against sin, and Christ was the sin-bearer..
When Joseph says to his brothers, "So now it was not you who sent me here but God" (Genesis 43:8), he knows quite well that it was the brothers and the Ishmaelite traders who sent him to Egypt, but he recognizes God's hand behind it all, and so, rightly, gives all the glory to God.
So why will you not give all the glory to God for saving us all? The Son and the Father worked together to redeem God's people, the most glorious event in all history, and He says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another" (Isaiah 42:8). He will certainly not share it with wicked men!

 

[agedman]

That is made clear in Isaiah 53:10, though as I've pointed out many times, God was not wrathful towards His Son, but against sin, and Christ was the sin-bearer..
When Joseph says to his brothers, "So now it was not you who sent me here but God" (Genesis 43:8), he knows quite well that it was the brothers and the Ishmaelite traders who sent him to Egypt, but he recognizes God's hand behind it all, and so, rightly, gives all the glory to God.
So why will you not give all the glory to God for saving us all? The Son and the Father worked together to redeem God's people, the most glorious event in all history, and He says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another" (Isaiah 42:8). He will certainly not share it with wicked men!

As has been shown through multiple posts, Isaiah 53 does not display God being wrathful toward the son in the slightest.

Again, Why would God be wrathful against sin and yet punish the sin - bearer. How is it possible For the Holy God to beat upon the one who is innocent and holy and that Holy God remain Holy?

Besides if the Lord Jesus became dirtied, then the unclean cannot make the unclean clean.

What makes you think I have not given God the total glory of saving those of His choosing?

I'm am glad to see that you present the Father and Son working in concert to redeem, and I also include by providing the redemption.

What I would like to see is that folks move from the thinking that God poured out His wrath upon the Son, to that which the Scriptures support and that is the Lord was victorious over sin, death and the grave. That the crucifixion was the tool used to bring lasting reconciliation between the violation of the decrees of the Law and God, and that because of the cross believers pass from death to eternal life into His presence.

 

[37818]

Ignatius (died 110)

“Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits” (To the Smyrnaeans, ch. 2)

All the letters attributed to Ignatius can be deemed a 3rd century forgery or later.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As has been shown through multiple posts, Isaiah 53 does not display God being wrathful toward the son in the slightest.

As has been shown in multiple posts, Isaiah 53 absolutely does display God being wrathful, not towards Christ, but against sin, which is why He set forth the Lord Jesus as a propitiation so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

I really can't spend any more time to-ing and fro-ing on this . I have four sermons to give in the next month and I need to get on with the preparation of them. I will just leave you with this extract from J.I. Packer:

'Jesus knew on the cross all the pain, physical and mental, than man could inflict and also the divine wrath and rejection that my sins deserve; for he was there in my place, making atonement for me'
[J.I. Packer, 'I want to be a Christian,' Kingsway Books, 1984]

 

[agedman]

Bottom line.

Christ bore the sins, and carried our sorrows. There is no doubt of that being Scripture.

Some claim God punished the sin, but then attempt to present this wasn’t punishing the sin bearer.

The is no Scripture to support such a claim.

Some point to Isaiah, but it isn’t there.

The most detailed presentation is Psalm 22. It isn’t there.

At no place is there Scripture to be found supporting the thinking God poured out His wrath upon the Son, nor is there any stating God poured wrath out on the Sin the Son carried, yet some how the wrath missed the Son.

So here is a solution.

Just as in the OT where no wrath of the atonement offering is shown if it is pure and the high priest worthy, the God of Israel was satisfied and the reconciliation made for another year.

Christ offered once for all met the same requirements of God being satisfied for eternity. No wrath on the Son, no wrath on the Sin.

Is there a NT example given by Christ. Certainly.

I refer you to the parable of the owner of the field sending servant to collect, and finally sending his own son. Who beat him and had him killed? The owner of the field or the servants?

Christ was victorious.

 

[Marooncat79]

PSA In The Early Church

Penal substitutionary Atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.

Ignatius (died 110)

“Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits” (To the Smyrnaeans, ch. 2)

Polycarp(69-155)

“I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because you have followed the example of true love [as displayed by God], and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord; and because the strong root of your faith, spoken of in days Philippians 1:5 long gone by, endures even until now, and brings forth fruit to our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sins suffered even unto death, [but] whom God raised from the dead, having loosed the bands of the grave” (To the Philippians, ch. 1)

Clement of Rome (written about 96)

“Because of the love that he had for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, in accordance with God’s will, gave his blood for us, and his flesh for our flesh, and his life for our lives” (1 Clem. 49:6)

Justin Martyr (100-165)

“Justin: For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, 'Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.' Deuteronomy 27:26 And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God. For you did not practise piety when you slew the prophets. And let none of you say: If His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed, we have done no wrong. If, indeed, you repent of your sins, and recognise Him to be Christ, and observe His commandments, then you may assert this; for, as I have said before, remission of sins shall be yours. But if you curse Him and them that believe in Him, and, when you have the power, put them to death, how is it possible that requisition shall not be made of you, as of unrighteous and sinful men, altogether hard-hearted and without understanding, because you laid your hands on Him?” (Dialogue with Trypho; Chapter 95. Christ took upon Himself the curse due to us)

Epistle to Diognetus (150-225 AD)

But [God] was patient, he bore with us, and out of pity for us took our sins upon himself. He gave up his own Son as a ransom for us, the holy one for the lawless, the innocent one for the wicked, the righteous one for the unrighteous, the imperishable one for the perishable, the immortal one for the mortal. (9.2)

For what else could hide our sins but the righteousness of that one? How could we who were lawless and impious be made upright except by the son of God alone? Oh the sweet exchange! . . . That the lawless deeds of many should be hidden by the one who was upright, and the righteousness of one should make upright the many who were lawless! (9.3-5)

Eusebius (260-339)

“But since being in the likeness of sinful flesh He condemned sin in the flesh, the words quoted are rightly used. And in that He made our sins His own from His love and benevolence towards us, He says these words, adding further on in the same Psalm: “Thou hast (b) protected me because of my innocence,” clearly shewing the impeccability of the Lamb of God. And how can He make our sins His own, and be said to bear our iniquities, except by our being regarded as His body, according to the apostle, who says: “Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members?” And by the rule that “if one member suffer all the members suffer with it,” so when the many members suffer and sin, He too by the laws of (c) sympathy (since the Word of God was pleased to take the form of a slave and to be knit into the common tabernacle of us all) takes into Himself the labours of the suffering members, and makes our sicknesses His, and suffers all our woes and labours by the laws of love. And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, (d) and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our 196 souls? And so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and “The Lord delivered him for our sins,” with the result that uniting Himself to us and us to Himself, and appropriating our sufferings” (Proof of the Gospel, Book X, ch.1)

Athanasius (293-373)

“But since it was necessary also that the debt owing from all should be paid again, for…it was owing that all should die…he next offered up his sacrifice also on behalf of all, yielding his temple to death in the stead of all, in order firstly to make men quit and free of their old trespass, and further to show himself more powerful even than death, displaying his own body incorruptible as first fruits of the resurrection of all” (On the Incarnation 20)

Hilary of Poitiers (300-368)

It was always necessary to go through this whole sacrificial action because the addition of a curse to the commandment forbad any trifling with the obligation of the offering. It was from this curse that our Lord Jesus Christ redeemed us, when, as the Apostle says, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is every one who hangeth on a tree.” Thus He offered Himself to the death of the accursed that He might break the curse of the Law, offering Himself voluntarily a victim to God the Father, in order that by means of a voluntary victim the curse which attended the discontinuance of the regular victim might be removed…Of which offering the holy Apostle thus speaks: “This He died once for all when He offered Himself up,” securing complete salvation for the human race by the offering of this holy, perfect victim.” (Homilies on the Psalms, Psalm 54, Chap. 13)

Gregory Nazianzus (330-390)

“But look at it in this manner: that as for my sake He was called a curse, Who destroyed my curse; and sin, who takes away the sin of the world; and became a new Adam to take the place of the old, just so He makes my disobedience His own as Head of the whole body. As long then as I am disobedient and rebellious, both by denial of God and by my passions, so long Christ also is called disobedient on my account...But as I said, He was in His own Person representing us. For we were the forsaken and despised before, but now by the Sufferings of Him Who could not suffer, we were taken up and saved. Similarly, He makes His own our folly and our transgressions; and says what follows in the Psalm, for it is very evident that the Twenty-first Psalm refers to Christ” (The Fourth Theological Oration. V)

Augustine (354-430)

“So sin means both a bad action deserving punishment, and death the consequence of sin. Christ has no sin in the sense of deserving death, but He bore for our sakes sin in the sense of death as brought on human nature by sin. This is what hung on the tree; this is what was cursed by Moses. Thus was death condemned that its reign might cease, and cursed that it might be destroyed. By Christ's taking our sin in this sense, its condemnation is our deliverance, while to remain in subjection to sin is to be condemned..The apostle boldly says of Christ, "He was made a curse for us;"


Yet, they will still deny