The definitive evidence against only limited atonement.

[Silverhair]

You are correct. I came across a message by a Calvinist who was saying that Jesus can do nothing for you if you don't believe. That was John Owen. But this is what I have been trying to say. The WCF, if read carefully is not in contradiction with this type of preaching. I think it's chapter 10 but the general call is real and you need to call on everyone to repent and believe the gospel (or believe the gospel and repent). It is not a joke - anyone who does this gets saved, but you know what - it turns out they were "elect". And it turns out they were of the folks Christ determined before the foundation of the world to die for. And it turns out they received the "effectual call". But at some point you appeal to people by preaching Christ and then they need to make a decision. How and why that occurred is theology and we can argue that.

I would correct your comment, it is not they were elect but rather they are elect once they are in Christ. Yes, Christ determined to die for the world so that would include all those that trust in Him for salvation. All are called but only some respond. You will notice that all are called to trust in Christ Jesus but it can and is rejected. It is the fact that they accept the gospel message that makes the call effectual, the call does not make them accept the message as you seem to have it.

To quote you. But at some point you appeal to people by preaching Christ and then they need to make a decision. How and why that occurred is theology and we can argue {I would say discuss} that.

 

[Silverhair]

You don't even see it. I can highlight it and still you won't see it.
You place humans above God and thus deny God's Sovereignty. You take Jesus atonement and make it ineffective for anyone whose will is greater than God's will. You put man in control of his own salvation and make Jesus a weak observer.
You limit Jesus atonement, not because Jesus was particular in who he died for, but because you think humans have the authority and power to limit Jesus atonement and thus make it ineffective.

In summary, your theology is terrible.

Where do you get these silly ideas. Have I ever said that God is not sovereign, NO. The one that has a problem with the sovereignty of God is you. You will not accept that God can and does grant free will to His creation. You require God to fit into the box Calvinism has made for Him.

The bible tells us that the will/desire of God is that all should be saved but you do not like that idea so you through up your hands and say everyone else is wrong because they do not think like you.

Jesus came to save the lost, He draws all, those that believe are saved those that don't are condemned. If you confess and believe your saved. Sure seems like God expects man to do something.

That is not man having power over God it is just man fulfilling the condition the God has set for salvation, faith in His son.

 

[AustinC]

Where do you get these silly ideas. Have I ever said that God is not sovereign, NO. The one that has a problem with the sovereignty of God is you. You will not accept that God can and does grant free will to His creation. You require God to fit into the box Calvinism has made for Him.

The bible tells us that the will/desire of God is that all should be saved but you do not like that idea so you through up your hands and say everyone else is wrong because they do not think like you.

Jesus came to save the lost, He draws all, those that believe are saved those that don't are condemned. If you confess and believe your saved. Sure seems like God expects man to do something.

That is not man having power over God it is just man fulfilling the condition the God has set for salvation, faith in His son.

Your theology teaches that God is not sovereign and that God is incapable of saving anyone who doesn't choose God. You teach that which God does not teach. This thread, once again, proves your false doctrine. You will answer to God for what you teach.

 

[Dave G]

Some particular Baptists and hyper-Calvinists believe that if you are part of the elect then you were either saved at the time of Christ's death or even from the foundation of the world, and that saving faith is when you realize you are elect.

I see that being taught in the underlined from Matthew 25:31-34, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:6-24, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 4:3 and other places.

However, I don't consider my faith to be something that saved me, eternally;
I consider that the Lord created me in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:10 ) and that the Gospel is the good news of my salvation from His wrath and eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire and to an everlasting relationship with Him.

That good news includes the fact that I was chosen by God and caused to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ),
and He did not leave that choice up to me...as in my former condition I would have never chosen to obey Him or consistently and with all my heart repent of my sins and turn from the things that He, in His holiness, displease Him.

As one of those given to Christ to save ( John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ), I was written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world...
and He sent His Son to die and rise again for me and others like me.


We have absolutely nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace...
Given to us before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, are you saying that you were saved before you actually believed? And I don't mean that you were born again or quickened so that the next thing you did was believe, but were you saved WAY before you believed. If you believed in Christ starting at age 25, were you actually saved from age 1-25, or were you lost until you believed? I'll let you know ahead of time what I'm getting at. If you believe that as an elect person the gospel is the good news of what you have already had happen to you from the beginning you have a whole lot of cases of really evil men who lived damaging odious lives up until the time they were saved who would find that hard to believe. Even if you lived a decent life by men's standards in that you never hurt anyone there is still a time of genuine repentance and confrontation with the fact that you are a sinner and business has to be done with God. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on this.

 

[Silverhair]

Your theology teaches that God is not sovereign and that God is incapable of saving anyone who doesn't choose God. You teach that which God does not teach. This thread, once again, proves your false doctrine. You will answer to God for what you teach.

Strange how you keep saying that I teach that God is not sovereign when it is you that denies his sovereignty. Your theology tries to restrict what He can do. You need to trust what the bible says and let go of that false theology you hold to.

When you start to trust the bible and not your calvinism then perhaps you will come into the light.

 

[Dave G]

Dave, are you saying that you were saved before you actually believed? And I don't mean that you were born again or quickened so that the next thing you did was believe, but were you saved WAY before you believed.

I see that salvation depends on God's choice, so yes.
Please see the passages I listed...

For example, in Romans 8:28-30, those that love God are the called according to His purpose.
They are the foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
In Romans 9, the children of God are the "vessels afore preapred unto glory", and not the "vessels of wrath", fitted to destruction.

Another example is Ephesians 1:3-14 which states that God's choice of the believer in Christ was made before the foundation of the world.
Their adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself was something they were predestinated to.

In 2 Timothy 1:9, His grace and mercy were given to those that believe before the world began.

In addition, I also believe what you've described in the underlined above.

If you believed in Christ starting at age 25, were you actually saved from age 1-25, or were you lost until you believed?

I was 12 years old in 1978 when I first heard God's word.
According to 2 Peter 3:8-9, God is not willing that any of His beloved perish, but that they all come to repentance...
which I did at that point.

So, I was chosen in Christ ( the decision to save me ) before the world began ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:10 ) as a vessel of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ) and I was notified of it through God's word and the power of God's Spirit ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14, James 1:18 ) when I heard the preaching of His word 44 years ago this May.

As far as the Lord is concerned, I was never lost in the eternal sense.
I was only "lost" in the natural sense, as I was of the same nature as the children of wrath ( Ephesians 2:3-5 ) before He graciously caused me to be born again and I then began to really listen to His words and believe them ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

In other words, I was "lost" but then "found"...
But never lost as in "perishing".

 

[Dave G]

If you believe that as an elect person the gospel is the good news of what you have already had happen to you from the beginning you have a whole lot of cases of really evil men who lived damaging odious lives up until the time they were saved who would find that hard to believe.

Do you mean like Paul was, who persecuted the body of Christ and brought believers to Jerusalem for punishment... or worse?

Yes, I believe that there are many out there who lived wicked lives before the Lord got a hold of them.

Even if you lived a decent life by men's standards in that you never hurt anyone there is still a time of genuine repentance and confrontation with the fact that you are a sinner and business has to be done with God.

Amen.

But to me, that "business that had to be done with God" was already accomplished for me at the cross.
From my vantage point, I'm "catching up" in my studies to what God has already done for me that I could never do for myself...
and I find all of those things ( as well as exceeding great and special promises to me ), in His precious word.

Eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), my friend, not a reward for what I did for God.
My understanding and belief of His every word is a result of His work in me.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, just when I thought I had Silverhair on the page that there really wasn't all that much difference in our beliefs on a practical level then this. Honestly, there is a logic to what you say, especially if you believe that the atonement truly did accomplish forgiveness for those who Jesus died for. I think you go too far because even though something is said to be certain by God himself, it is still not done till it is actually done. In your opinion, how does this fit in with Puritan teaching of the necessity of faith and repentance before justification and the fact that there must be sanctification and perseverance in the life of a saint?

 

[AustinC]

Strange how you keep saying that I teach that God is not sovereign when it is you that denies his sovereignty. Your theology tries to restrict what He can do. You need to trust what the bible says and let go of that false theology you hold to.

When you start to trust the bible and not your calvinism then perhaps you will come into the light.

Your claim has been shown false on multiple occasions as you twist.
Note, God chooses exactly what he desires with no limitation. Each person whom God saves, he does so because He wills to do this. Moreso, John 10 tells us that everyone the Father gives to Jesus, he will not lose.

Now, let's look at your claim. You claim that God chose every human that has ever existed. But, each human can stop God by their own will going against God's will and thus forcing Jesus to lose them due to the human will that defeats God's will.

Now, anyone here can easily see that you have openly declared that humans bind God's hands from saving them. Thus, you don't believe in God's Sovereignty or Supremacy.

I know that God will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy and he will harden the heart of whom he wills to harden. (Romans 9) I know that you ignore all these verses and go out of your way to use the Bible much like Satan used the Bible, taking verses in small bits and ignoring context in order to create a false teaching. This is obvious to anyone reading this thread. Only those who hate God would follow you.

 

[Silverhair]

Your claim has been shown false on multiple occasions as you twist.
Note, God chooses exactly what he desires with no limitation. Each person whom God saves, he does so because He wills to do this. Moreso, John 10 tells us that everyone the Father gives to Jesus, he will not lose.

Now, let's look at your claim. You claim that God chose every human that has ever existed. But, each human can stop God by their own will going against God's will and thus forcing Jesus to lose them due to the human will that defeats God's will.

Now, anyone here can easily see that you have openly declared that humans bind God's hands from saving them. Thus, you don't believe in God's Sovereignty or Supremacy.

I know that God will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy and he will harden the heart of whom he wills to harden. (Romans 9) I know that you ignore all these verses and go out of your way to use the Bible much like Satan used the Bible, taking verses in small bits and ignoring context in order to create a false teaching. This is obvious to anyone reading this thread. Only those who hate God would follow you.

Austin we have gone over this so many times that it is really getting trying. You may think that you have the correct understanding of the bible but I disagree with you. You twist the scriptures to fit your view and it makes you pat yourself on the back. Well you keep doing that as quite frankly what you say has not influence on me. I will just trust the bible and you can trust your calvinism.

I see your calvinism as a false doctrine so why would I follow it? But unlike you I would never say that someone I disagree with must be like satan. You should be ashamed of yourself for those type of comments. But I doubt you will be.

 

[Brightfame52]

Looks like you don't like what you read. But that is not a great surprise.

Christ Jesus came to seek and to save the lost Luk_19:10, this includes all people Joh_12:32, and He was the propitiation for all sins 1Jn 2:2. But we are also told that we have to do something, we have to believe Joh 3:18 and why we might do so Eph 1:13. Salvation is conditional, the person has to make a choice Rom 10:9-10, the sad part many will reject the offer and die in their sins.

So you see Christ Jesus did indeed die for sinners that will be lost because they reject the good faith offer of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I realize that all those big words may confuse you but try real hard to understand what they say.

All of the verses you quote here I know and rejoice in, but why do you evade the simple yes or no question ? Dont you believe that there are sinners Christ died for, took their sins upon Himself and satisfied Gods law and justice for, that those same sinners will die in their sins? Yes or No

 

[Brightfame52]

Not an insult, just an observation.

Yes its an insult, I can read fine !

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

God has set the condition for salvation and that is faith in His son.

So then you believe that Gods word teaches Salvation conditioned on what man does. Yes or No

 

[DaveXR650]

silverhair



So then you believe that Gods word teaches Salvation conditioned on what man does. Yes or No

In the sense that faith is the "cause" of justification then no. But is it absolutely essential that faith is necessary or else there is no justification then yes, in that sense it is a "condition". If as a Calvinist, I am going to be so precise as to be upset when some Baptist or Arminian says he had to believe, then I have to realize that we can go so far in the other direction that we are afraid to say "Yes, I believed". Yes or no, is there ANY sense in which faith is a condition of salvation. (Not that faith is the cause or merit of salvation but that without faith there will be no salvation)? This was the opinion of Jonathan Edwards and I think you can get it from the WCF too.

 

[AustinC]

In the sense that faith is the "cause" of justification then no. But is it absolutely essential that faith is necessary or else there is no justification then yes, in that sense it is a "condition". If as a Calvinist, I am going to be so precise as to be upset when some Baptist or Arminian says he had to believe, then I have to realize that we can go so far in the other direction that we are afraid to say "Yes, I believed". Yes or no, is there ANY sense in which faith is a condition of salvation. (Not that faith is the cause or merit of salvation but that without faith there will be no salvation)? This was the opinion of Jonathan Edwards and I think you can get it from the WCF too.

Does faith come before or after salvation?

 

[AustinC]

Austin we have gone over this so many times that it is really getting trying. You may think that you have the correct understanding of the bible but I disagree with you. You twist the scriptures to fit your view and it makes you pat yourself on the back. Well you keep doing that as quite frankly what you say has not influence on me. I will just trust the bible and you can trust your calvinism.

I see your calvinism as a false doctrine so why would I follow it? But unlike you I would never say that someone I disagree with must be like satan. You should be ashamed of yourself for those type of comments. But I doubt you will be.

Of course you disagree with me. You have taken a couple verses out of context and claimed man overcomes God's will for them and God can do nothing about it.
That doctrine you preach does not come from God.
Stop teaching a false gospel of humans saving themselves by personal choice.

 

[AustinC]

silverhair



So then you believe that Gods word teaches Salvation conditioned on what man does. Yes or No

That's exactly what he teaches.

 

[Silverhair]

All of the verses you quote here I know and rejoice in, but why do you evade the simple yes or no question ? Dont you believe that there are sinners Christ died for, took their sins upon Himself and satisfied Gods law and justice for, that those same sinners will die in their sins? Yes or No

Did you not understand what post #57 says? Go back and read it and then tell me what it states clearly.

 

[Silverhair]

silverhair



So then you believe that Gods word teaches Salvation conditioned on what man does. Yes or No

Don't you?