The definitive evidence against only limited atonement.

[Silverhair]

Of course you disagree with me. You have taken a couple verses out of context and claimed man overcomes God's will for them and God can do nothing about it.
That doctrine you preach does not come from God.
Stop teaching a false gospel of humans saving themselves by personal choice.

And therein lays the problem. You jump to unwarranted conclusions and make over the top assumptions.
1] You claim that God can only be sovereign if He decrees everything that happens yet according to you He is not sovereign enough to grant free will to His creation. So in other words your version of God is really not sovereign.
2] I know that only God can save and He saves those that trust in His son. Unlike you that thinks that God saves someone then He makes them believe.

You have it backwards. Because of personal choice God saves or condemns man.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And we know that this salvation for all of God creation.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why do you not accept what the bible teaches? Stop fighting with God, He is trying to show you the truth but you refuse to see it.

 

[AustinC]

See how Paul corrects himself to show how God saves by God's choice, not by man's choice.

But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
~ Galatians 4:9

 

[AustinC]

And therein lays the problem. You jump to unwarranted conclusions and make over the top assumptions.
1] You claim that God can only be sovereign if He decrees everything that happens yet according to you He is not sovereign enough to grant free will to His creation. So in other words your version of God is really not sovereign.
2] I know that only God can save and He saves those that trust in His son. Unlike you that thinks that God saves someone then He makes them believe.

You have it backwards. Because of personal choice God saves or condemns man.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And we know that this salvation for all of God creation.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why do you not accept what the bible teaches? Stop fighting with God, He is trying to show you the truth but you refuse to see it.

You continue to quote a sentence of the Bible out of context (like the evil spirits do) and then expect that all should agree. Your false doctrine is exposed as man-centered and denying the Sovereignty of God.
You force a philosophy of free will upon God and then say "God isn't Sovereign if he doesn't give humans free will." How twisted and disgusting your thoughts are about God.
Any true believer in Christ will see your error and reject it.

 

[Silverhair]

See how Paul corrects himself to show how God saves by God's choice, not by man's choice.

But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
~ Galatians 4:9

You think that God does not know those that freely trust in Him? I don't you think it would make the Galatians feel better knowing that God knows them. Notice Paul said this to those that believe. "But now that you have come to know God,"

 

[Silverhair]

You continue to quote a sentence of the Bible out of context (like the evil spirits do) and then expect that all should agree. Your false doctrine is exposed as man-centered and denying the Sovereignty of God.
You force a philosophy of free will upon God and then say "God isn't Sovereign if he doesn't give humans free will." How twisted and disgusting your thoughts are about God.
Any true believer in Christ will see your error and reject it.

Do you have a problem with scripture? Show me where the context does not agree with what I quoted. Your refusal to submit to the bible tells a great deal about you. You compared me to satan and now to evil spirits whats next?

Austin you are the perfect example of why I would never follow the calvinist theology. Your arrogant and mean spirited. Your attitude seems to be the outcome of the theology you follow and it is surely not biblical.

Funny you keep saying that God is not sovereign if He gives man a free will. But since we see in the bible that God expects man to man choices then I would have to say that God has given man a free will.

You can deny scripture all you want but just do not expect me to agree with your errant views.

 

[AustinC]

Do you have a problem with scripture? Show me where the context does not agree with what I quoted. Your refusal to submit to the bible tells a great deal about you. You compared me to satan and now to evil spirits whats next?

Austin you are the perfect example of why I would never follow the calvinist theology. Your arrogant and mean spirited. Your attitude seems to be the outcome of the theology you follow and it is surely not biblical.

Funny you keep saying that God is not sovereign if He gives man a free will. But since we see in the bible that God expects man to man choices then I would have to say that God has given man a free will.

You can deny scripture all you want but just do not expect me to agree with your errant views.

First, every verse you reference has already been refuted multiple times, yet you keep falling on them despite being shown your error.
Yes, Satan uses sentences in the Bible to twist what God intended for people. You are using the same strategy.
You keep falling on your calvinist boogeyman, yet I never talk about calvin. I always show you scripture. I provided 6 pages for you to see what God says regarding his choice to save whom he wills. Yet, you just reject scripture.
Funny, I never said what you claimed about me. I claim your teaching, that God cannot save if humans have free will to reject God, therefore removes God's Sovereignty from God. You cannot grasp how horrible your error is.

Since I don't deny any scripture, you can just put that false claim to bed with your calvinist boogeyman.

Now, deal with the reality that God chooses to have mercy upon whom He wills and harden whom He wills. Accept this truth and let it change the perversion of your thoughts.

 

[DaveXR650]

Does faith come before or after salvation?

Faith comes before salvation. I am willing to say that the quickening or drawing by the Holy Spirit comes before faith but you are not saved without faith. Do you see what is happening here? We're all looking at the same scriptures and depending on how far we take our human logic we can end up with wrong ideas on both sides.

The Calvinist says Jesus died to provide an actual and effective atonement for the elect. Therefore at the atonement they were saved. No wait, since this was in God's mind at the beginning of time then obviously the elect were save then. They will come to faith in due time which really is just gaining the knowledge that they are elect.

The Arminian says tut, tut and piffle. Salvation is impossible without faith and it's your faith. Therefore is was not given to you. Therefore it is obviously the result of your own free will. Therefore the atonement was potential and in itself saved no one. "I" am responsible and sovereign in my salvation.

Both have elements of truth but have allowed human logic to go beyond what we can truly know. But from what I am seeing on here, at the point where we as humans are truly involved - at the point of believing the truth about Jesus and the gospel and repenting of our sins - it appears to me that the Arminian position is better than the extreme Calvinist position. The extreme Calvinist position is very close to minimizing the importance of "saving faith", which involves a coming to Christ and closing with Christ and throwing yourself on his mercy as a sinner, not as one of the elect.

As I have said before, there is a wide range of Calvinism from hyper-Calvinism all the way to the neonomianism of Baxter. There is also a wide range of non-Calvinist Christian thought with a moderate and still monergistic viewpoint that simply doesn't have the limits of the atonement to be the deciding factor all the way to semi-Pelagianism.

 

[AustinC]

Faith comes before salvation. I am willing to say that the quickening or drawing by the Holy Spirit comes before faith but you are not saved without faith. Do you see what is happening here? We're all looking at the same scriptures and depending on how far we take our human logic we can end up with wrong ideas on both sides.

The Calvinist says Jesus died to provide an actual and effective atonement for the elect. Therefore at the atonement they were saved. No wait, since this was in God's mind at the beginning of time then obviously the elect were save then. They will come to faith in due time which really is just gaining the knowledge that they are elect.

The Arminian says tut, tut and piffle. Salvation is impossible without faith and it's your faith. Therefore is was not given to you. Therefore it is obviously the result of your own free will. Therefore the atonement was potential and in itself saved no one. "I" am responsible and sovereign in my salvation.

Both have elements of truth but have allowed human logic to go beyond what we can truly know. But from what I am seeing on here, at the point where we as humans are truly involved - at the point of believing the truth about Jesus and the gospel and repenting of our sins - it appears to me that the Arminian position is better than the extreme Calvinist position. The extreme Calvinist position is very close to minimizing the importance of "saving faith", which involves a coming to Christ and closing with Christ and throwing yourself on his mercy as a sinner, not as one of the elect.

As I have said before, there is a wide range of Calvinism from hyper-Calvinism all the way to the neonomianism of Baxter. There is also a wide range of non-Calvinist Christian thought with a moderate and still monergistic viewpoint that simply doesn't have the limits of the atonement to be the deciding factor all the way to semi-Pelagianism.

I do see what happens. I see you are wrong when you say that faith comes before salvation.

God saves, purely by his choice to graciously save us by making us alive, who once were dead.
God gives us faith, which causes us to believe and repent. The evidence of our salvation is our perseverence in faith, which is the process of sanctification that leads to glorification.

 

[Silverhair]

First, every verse you reference has already been refuted multiple times, yet you keep falling on them despite being shown your error.
Yes, Satan uses sentences in the Bible to twist what God intended for people. You are using the same strategy.
You keep falling on your calvinist boogeyman, yet I never talk about calvin. I always show you scripture. I provided 6 pages for you to see what God says regarding his choice to save whom he wills. Yet, you just reject scripture.
Funny, I never said what you claimed about me. I claim your teaching, that God cannot save if humans have free will to reject God, therefore removes God's Sovereignty from God. You cannot grasp how horrible your error is.

Since I don't deny any scripture, you can just put that false claim to bed with your calvinist boogeyman.

Now, deal with the reality that God chooses tp have mercy upon whom He wills and harden whom He wills. Accept this truth and let it change the perversion of your thoughts.

To quote you "First, every verse you reference has already been refuted multiple times, yet you keep falling on them despite being shown your error."

The scripture is clear you just do not want to admit it. Go ahead an tell me where the text is wrong.
Which one does not agree with what I have said?
Here is the list of verses I gave you so tell me where the problem is.
Joh 3:18; Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13; 1Ti 2:3-4.

You seem to have a real problem trusting what the bible say. Here is one that you should take to heart as it may help you:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Austin I can only show you to the scriptures I can not make you accept them. I do pray that God will open your eyes to the truths that are in His word. Your pride is holding you back from finding the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith comes before salvation. I am willing to say that the quickening or drawing by the Holy Spirit comes before faith but you are not saved without faith. Do you see what is happening here? We're all looking at the same scriptures and depending on how far we take our human logic we can end up with wrong ideas on both sides.

The Calvinist says Jesus died to provide an actual and effective atonement for the elect. Therefore at the atonement they were saved. No wait, since this was in God's mind at the beginning of time then obviously the elect were save then. They will come to faith in due time which really is just gaining the knowledge that they are elect.

The Arminian says tut, tut and piffle. Salvation is impossible without faith and it's your faith. Therefore is was not given to you. Therefore it is obviously the result of your own free will. Therefore the atonement was potential and in itself saved no one. "I" am responsible and sovereign in my salvation.

Both have elements of truth but have allowed human logic to go beyond what we can truly know. But from what I am seeing on here, at the point where we as humans are truly involved - at the point of believing the truth about Jesus and the gospel and repenting of our sins - it appears to me that the Arminian position is better than the extreme Calvinist position. The extreme Calvinist position is very close to minimizing the importance of "saving faith", which involves a coming to Christ and closing with Christ and throwing yourself on his mercy as a sinner, not as one of the elect.

As I have said before, there is a wide range of Calvinism from hyper-Calvinism all the way to the neonomianism of Baxter. There is also a wide range of non-Calvinist Christian thought with a moderate and still monergistic viewpoint that simply doesn't have the limits of the atonement to be the deciding factor all the way to semi-Pelagianism.

Only one comment that I would make on this post. I think you have mischaracterized Arminianism with the comment, "I" am responsible and sovereign in my salvation.

God expects man to make a real choices in regard to their eternal destiny. How would a person fulfilling the condition of God make that man sovereign over his salvation. Man cannot save himself only God can save a person and He does that in response to the persons decision.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Seems clear to me, the person hears & believes and then God saves.

 

[Silverhair]

I do see what happens. I see you are wrong when you say that faith comes before salvation.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Seems clear to me, the person hears & believes and then God saves. God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is faith in Christ Jesus that saves the sinner.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 11 pm EST / 8 pm PST

 

[AustinC]

To quote you "First, every verse you reference has already been refuted multiple times, yet you keep falling on them despite being shown your error."

The scripture is clear you just do not want to admit it. Go ahead an tell me where the text is wrong.
Which one does not agree with what I have said?
Here is the list of verses I gave you so tell me where the problem is.
Joh 3:18; Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13; 1Ti 2:3-4.

You seem to have a real problem trusting what the bible say. Here is one that you should take to heart as it may help you:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Austin I can only show you to the scriptures I can not make you accept them. I do pray that God will open your eyes to the truths that are in His word. Your pride is holding you back from finding the truth.

Nothing to do with pride. It has everything to do with embracing the entirety of God's word, which expresses God's Supremacy throughout eternity.

2 Timothy 3:12-17

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

You work hard to deceive, Silverhair, while being deceived.

 

[DaveXR650]

I do see what happens. I see you are wrong when you say that faith comes before salvation.

God saves, purely by his choice to graciously save us by making us alive, who once were dead.
God gives us faith, which causes us to believe and repent. The evidence of our salvation is our perseverence in faith, which is the process of sanctification that leads to glorification.

I do this too but technically you can't mix up the term salvation and justification. And, because of what you said in the second part I know you are not a hyper-Calvinist. Where I am disagreeing is that I believe that justification does not occur before faith because faith is the uniting with Christ on the part of the believer. So if you want to say at the same time, OK. You are correct when you say it's a gift and God is not having to wait around to see if you sovereignly decide on your part to choose to believe. I believe too that perseverance is the evidence of faith but I think the Puritans were right in that this perseverance and sanctification is a difficult real time activity which is necessary for salvation and may involve difficulty and consternation, victories and defeats, for the believer. So when a Calvinist goes so far logically that all this becomes moot because he has decided it's all a predetermined done deal I am concerned. Now the charge here could be that I am sounding a lot like a free willer because what I am saying about perseverance is close to "holding out", all I can do is point you to Edwards or to the more modern book "Still Sovereign". They both address these issues.

 

[AustinC]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Seems clear to me, the person hears & believes and then God saves. God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is faith in Christ Jesus that saves the sinner.

Let's look at the whole so you and others can see what God says. You literally cut a sentence in half to twist your delusional point. (We see Satan quoting scripture in that fashion. Why do you use the same tactic?)
Here's what God tells us:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
~ Ephesians 1:3-14

Notice how horribly wrong you are.
Indeed, every reader can see how horribly wrong you are.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:1-9

 

[AustinC]

The definitive answer is that limited atonement is what God teaches in the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing to do with pride. It has everything to do with embracing the entirety of God's word, which expresses God's Supremacy throughout eternity.

2 Timothy 3:12-17

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

You work hard to deceive, Silverhair, while being deceived.

I do not question Gods' sovereignty what I do question is your lack of understanding of it. You continue to restrict what God can and does do and then claim to be biblical.

If you would only embrace the whole word of God then you might actually understand the bible. Your pride keeps you from trusting scripture because it would require you to change your mind, and that you will not do. As I said I will pray that you do finally open your heart to the true of scripture.

 

[DaveXR650]

Only one comment that I would make on this post. I think you have mischaracterized Arminianism with the comment, "I" am responsible and sovereign in my salvation.

Yes. I was using the extreme ends of both sides to make a point. I am no expert but I have looked into this enough to know that the classic writings of Arminius himself are pretty much Calvinistic but a stronger, more semi-Pelagian position is what most people now view as Arminianism. And the "I am sovereign" in my salvation is what I have actually observed in some cases and that was the camp I came from. I didn't mean to suggest that you are doing that just like I don't want Austin to think I think he's a hyper.

 

[Silverhair]

Let's look at the whole so you and others can see what God says. You literally cut a sentence in half to twist your delusional point. (We see Satan quoting scripture in that fashion. Why do you use the same tactic?)
Here's what God tells us:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
~ Ephesians 1:3-14

Notice how horribly wrong you are.
Indeed, every reader can see how horribly wrong you are.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:1-9

What I see is a great deal of blow and bluster from someone that does not trust scripture. You can not understand how anyone could understand the bible unless they see it just like you. Having looked at calvinism I find that it does not hold true to the bible so why would I follow that theological view.

 

[37818]

@Silverhair,
That the particular redemption can be shown from Scripture does not disprove a general redemption. Luke 22:20-21 stands as definitive evidence. Was not limited to those at the table nor excluded Judas.