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Featured Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Mar 7, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    He told them that they would drink from His cup. You say that is meaningless - it just means they woukd physically die. You are taking liberties with Scripture, and making assertions you refuse to back up with Scripture. I think we are done here, brother. Nothing to be gained.
     
    #21 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn’t “just mean” they would die. It means they would suffer and die for the cause of Christ.

    peace to you
     
    #22 canadyjd, Mar 7, 2022
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  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    The Cup that Jesus drank only He who is God and Man would be able to endure!
     
    #23 JesusFan, Mar 7, 2022
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not what the passage says. If Christ's cup is God's wrath then drinking that cup is not "dying for Christ".

    This is all silly anyway because "the cup" does not mean "God's wrath". It means what lies ahead, whether it is physical death, wrath, or blessings.

    What you ate doing is reading into Scripture what is not there.

    Do you know of ANY passage that says Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us? What about a verse that says He died instead of us? Or a verse that says God punished Christ? Or one that says sins can be transfered? Or one that says God will substitute the righteous for the wicked?

    Of course you don't because there are none.

    All of these threads and all ypu guys can offer is philosophy....no passages.
     
    #24 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 4:1-5
    Then Moses answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you.’” The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A staff.” And he said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses ran from it. But the Lord said to Moses, “Put out your hand and catch it by the tail”—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

    Exodus 5:1-2
    Afterward Moses and Aaron went and said to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness.’” But Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, and moreover, I will not let Israel go.”

    Exodus 7:1-5,9,20,25
    And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.” “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” Moses and Aaron did as the Lord commanded. In the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants he lifted up the staff and struck the water in the Nile, and all the water in the Nile turned into blood. Seven full days passed after the Lord had struck the Nile.

    I could go on.
    Moses staff/rod is a rod of judgment. When God has Moses use the staff, a judgment comes to Egypt at the Red Sea. The people of Israel knew that Moses "passing by the people" was an expected judgment. Yet, instead of the judgment falling on Israel, it fell on the Rock.
    Paul fills in the rest in 1 Corinthians 10.

    Jon,you need to embrace what God presents.
     
    #25 AustinC, Mar 7, 2022
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is a rod.

    Nevertheless, it is a far cry from believing Moses struck a rock symbolic of Christ and believing Hod punished Christ instead of punishing us. If anything, the rod would represent God's people - not God Himself (which would be in line with Peter's sermon that Christ was handed over by the Jews and suffered and died by wicked men).

    Frankly, I am amazed you are so resistant to Scripture.
     
    #26 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, Paul is extremely clear in 1 Corinthians 10.
    It seems you are being resistant to scripture. Note that I am not creating something from nothing. Most covenant theologians point out what I have pointed out.
    Did the people of Israel deserve the strike of God's judgment or did the rock deserve it?

    Does Paul call that Rock Jesus?

    Jon, Paul makes the connection and you stand against what Paul connects.
     
    #27 AustinC, Mar 7, 2022
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not denying the rock symbolizes Christ. I am saying you are pushing the meaning to the passage beyond all biblical credibility.

    Paul does not say God punished Christ instead of us. Moses is not said to have symbolized the Father.

    Please consider what is written in Scripture and, if you are able, set aside a moment your theory of Atonement and re-read the passages @agedman and I have pointed out.
     
    #28 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The context of Christ saying they would drink the same cup He was drinking is clearly a reference to suffering and dying for the cause of Christ.

    The Isaiah 53 passage says He was “smitten” of God for our transgressions and by His stripe we are healed. That is God punishing Him and “substitution” language.

    You can disagree all day, which is fine, but it is intellectually dishonest to call PSA “extra-biblical” or a philosophy.

    peace to you
     
    #29 canadyjd, Mar 7, 2022
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  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    @Revmitchell

    You established this thread on mere opinion.

    Have you so little to offer, not knowing the name of the Saviour occurs as early as Genesis 49:18?
    I await Your salvation, O LORD. (Salvation - Hebrew = yeshuah, Greek = Iesus English = Jesus​


    Theophany is throughout the OT and so is His name,

    The angel did not give the Saviour an unusual or “new” name, but one familiar to all Hebrews - the Savior.

    If this thread is an example of your work in the Scriptures, it is incredibly uninformed.
     
    #30 agedman, Mar 7, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. That is not the context. He was speaking of the cup that awaited Him. The disciples wanted to be at His hand. He told them they would indeed share the cup but to sit at His hand was not His to give.

    You are reading into the passage what you think could make up for what is not there.
     
    #31 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    And so we disagree.

    Thanks for the conversation

    peace to you
     
    #32 canadyjd, Mar 7, 2022
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but there are a few important differences. Two of which are time and the fire. Which the lost must bear for eternity. Christ redeems people not the fallen angels. Matthew 25:41.
     
    #33 37818, Mar 7, 2022
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    NO,!!,,

    IT says “WE esteemed Him smitten of God…”

    The Scriptures DO NOT state God ever smote the Son!
     
    #34 agedman, Mar 7, 2022
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are welcome. I also enjoyed the conversation and never expected us to agree.

    Just a few years ago I would have been right beside you advocating Penal Substitution Theory. It is something that runs deep in our understanding post-Reformation.

    With God's guidance and grace it was fairly easy for me to rely on His Word rather than my understanding to move away from the Theory.

    It was much more difficult to simply read His words before me without carrying into them our traditions and theories.

    So I understand, not only what you see and why you see it, but also how difficult it is to simply trust God's Word and revisit one's own understanding.
     
    #35 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, I provided that the rod is one of judgment. I showed how the rod is judgment upon the rock that the people deserved. Instead God poured out gracious water of life.
    Clearly you don't want to make the connection that Paul intends for us to connect. We have finished our discussion.
     
    #36 AustinC, Mar 7, 2022
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again, I question your ability of comprehending Scripture by grabbing a verse which is not related to the cross at all, and making some remarkable leap of illogical thinking.

    What is more sad, that you have folks who would agree with you!

    Has the true discernment of Scriptures been lost by those who would present so sloppily and yet be praised?
     
    #37 agedman, Mar 7, 2022
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You pushed the meaning, but I'm fine with the connection.

    The Jews did esteem Christ stricken by God. They did give Him over to die at the hands of wicked men.

    I am questioning if Moses striking a rock is enough to defend the idea that God punished Christ instead of punishing us.

    I don't believe it is. For one, it contradicts Scripture (God will not transfer sins from one person to another, sins cannot be transfered as the guilty must die, God's wrath is not on the righteous. For another, to suggest here that Moses represents the Father punishing Christ has no biblical foundation.

    But we also have to keep in mind that nowhere in Scripture is Penal Substitution Theory taught or needed.
     
    #38 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    yep another good point that destroys any idea that Gods wrath was not poured on Jesus.
     
    #39 Revmitchell, Mar 7, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it doesn't. The RCC (and by default those who seek to reform RCC doctrine rather than seeking out God's Word) have pagan view of sacrifice. God tells us what pleased Him was obedience, not the blood of bulls.

    The idea of appeasing a god by sacrificing an animal is pagan, and it is at the core of your faith regarding the OT sacrifices.

    But Scripture tells us this was God, in His forbearance, passing over their sins.

    There are no passages teaching that Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us. You get this from Calvinism (which is a version of RCC faith). But you do not get this from Svripture - Scripture stands in contrast to your reformed-RCC doctrine.

    Scripture teaches God will not substitute the Just for the unjust, condemn the innocent, transfer sins, subject His righteous to wrath, and is not manipulated by men. This alone proves your theory incorrect.
     
    #40 JonC, Mar 7, 2022
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