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Featured Magic Blood Theory

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AustinC, Mar 9, 2022.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Colossians, Hebrews and Romans each promote an aspect of the work of the crucifixion.

    My posting from Colossians is consistent with that of Hebrews and Romans, except the book is far shorter, more compact and can be more easily discerned for context.

    Just as in Romans and Hebrews, there is no "wrath" mentioned in relationship to the crucifixion, but the work accomplished as was presented to the earliest believers. Each follows Peter's opening remarks on Pentecost and do not refute his presentation.

    Sure I could cite from Galatians, Ephesians, John's works, but by staying primarily with these three pillars concerning the work of the crucifixion it keeps the message focused and concise.

    Hope that helps.

    Did you notice Colossians 1 was also cited? Of course you did. Again, I am trying to show the consistency of the presentation of the Apostle.
     
    #101 agedman, Mar 11, 2022
  2. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    If his blood wasn't "holy and pure" as you put it, it wouldn't have been very effectual in covering our sins. Sorry, but I don't think God would have sent Christ to die if the blood weren't pure.
     
    #102 AVL1984, Mar 11, 2022
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  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This is so very true.
    Though tempted and tried in all points as a human, our Lord was unblemished by the world, both from without and within. He alone was totally pure and totally holy, for "All the fullness of the God dwelt in Him."

    When did He receive his first marks? When the ungodly such as myself touched Him. Prior to that we had not and could not for He would "pass through our midst" when we wanted to take Him.

    He allowed us to do that which our ungodly hearts desired, had He not He would never have been crucified.
     
    #103 agedman, Mar 11, 2022
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...do you think this argument is between God's wrath falling on sin, or do you think it's his wrath falling on Jesus himself?

    The question for me is: What falls upon the Lamb, whose sacrificial death substitutes for the sins of the people for whom the Lamb is sacrificed?
    Or do you declare that there is no substitute, the Lamb just died, but no substitution took place?

    Here is where I don't understand your argument.

    If Jesus death didn't do anything, then of what value was it?
    If his death did something, what did it do?
    Surely blood coming out of his body wasn't magic blood. If it was, then only the folks who were at Golgotha and buried him would have been affected.

    Was his death a substitution of our sins in exchange for His righteousness?
     
    #104 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
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  5. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    #105 AVL1984, Mar 11, 2022
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    AVL, I hope you realize that I was asking questions of clarification from agedman, not stating my view. I am attempting to figure out what agedman and Jon actually believe about Jesus atonement and how it differs from others here...so much so that they have spent a minimum of 5 topic threads berating others for allegedly holding a pagan philosophy of atonement while they hold the only biblical thinking on atonement. I have yet to read a simple topic statement by them that exactly states what they actually believe about the atonement and then clearly show how it is any different than what their brothers believe.
    When I attempt to get this clear, simple statement, I receive some runaround instead.
     
    #106 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You know....the only reason given to call @agedman and my view "unbiblical" (other than not believing what some think Scripture "teaches" beyond what is written) was given by @Iconoclast when he called it an error to believe "Christ bore our sins in His body on the cross" because this is not in Scripture.

    The reason I believe "Christ bore our sins in His body on the cross" is because 1 Peter 2:24 says "Christ bore our sins in His body on the cross".

    I wonder....since some find our view unbiblical, are there any actual passages (what is written) that we reject....or is it all just objecting to the fact we no longer accept your additions and conclusions?
     
    #107 JonC, Mar 11, 2022
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This reeks of Apollarianism or Nestorianism, or a hybrid of the two.
     
    #108 SovereignGrace, Mar 11, 2022
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Please explain this passage. Then explain how your interpretation is different from Iconoclast.

    1 Peter 2:20-24
    For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
     
    #109 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Now, interpret what God tells us here.

    Isaiah 53:3-5,10-11

    He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

    Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
     
    #110 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why does the passage need “interpreted?”

    Why not take it as it is written?


    We suffer, Christ suffered as an example. Each by human hands, and neither by the hand of God.

    Just as we should trust the God who does not have unequal scales, So did the Christ.

    All this is in total agreement with that presented by @JonC and me.
     
    #111 agedman, Mar 11, 2022
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  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again, this has already been done. Did you not read with understanding the posts @JonC and I made?

    Does not the Scripture you present clearly state,
    Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

    ​
    There is no conflict with what either @JonC or I have posted.

    However, by you super imposing PSA on this passage it is torn from intent of Acknowledging that just as God saw the OT sacrifice and was satisfied, the death of the animal as cruel as it may seem brought God temporary reconciliation.

    Isaiah did not publish the wrath of God. That is your own reading into the passage.
     
    #112 agedman, Mar 11, 2022
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  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Really, you don't think the Bible needs to be interpreted? How can you tell someone what you believe if you cannot answer their questions, but simply say "why does this need to be explained"? You realize Jesus spent most of the 3 years of his ministry explaining scripture to people. Was Jesus wrong to explain and interpret scripture?
    I will go through 1 Peter 2 for you.

    For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

    Christ suffered for me. When and where did he suffer for me? He suffered at the hands of mockers and rulers.
    Jesus gave me an example as a mentor so I would follow his path.

    He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

    Jesus didn't sin, ever. Jesus didn't try to deceive when he spoke and interpreted the Bible.

    When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

    Jesus was hated by others. He did not hate back on them.
    Jesus suffered. He did not respond back with evil malice.
    Instead Jesus trusted God the Father's sovereign plan. He trusted that God the Father would be just in His judgment.

    He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

    Our sins, all of them, past, present, and future, were placed upon Jesus when he died as the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
    Why did Jesus bear the guilt of our sins? Answer: So that we would die to sin and live to righteousness. Paul says in Romans that we went from being a slave to sin to being a slave to righteousness. Paul also tells us in Galatians 2:20 that we were crucified with Christ and now Christ lives within us.
    By Jesus death on the cross we were healed. This last phrase is Peter's reference to Isaiah 53, which Jesus also referenced, which Phillip explained to the Ethiopian eunuch. Therefore, it is important.

    He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

    Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
    ~ Isaiah 53:3-5,10-11

    So...it is important to explain and interpret what is said so we see how all of scripture connects to show us Jesus.

    Agedman, if you have a different position, you need to show us your interpretation, not just throw your hands in the air and say you don't need to do so...but then tell everyone else that they are wrong. That's simply wrong on your part.
     
    #113 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What explanation of this passage have you actually posted? Please link me to it.
     
    #114 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I would say the following to be more correct.

    For the life of the flesh is in the blood: Lev 17:11 KJV
    for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; Lev 17:11 Darby
    ‘For the [fn]life of the flesh is in the blood, Lev 17:11 NASB [fn] Literally soul

    And the Word was made flesh, John 1:14 KJV
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:3 KJV

    I would say Jesus, the Son of God, the Word made flesh, was in the likeness of sinful flesh with his soul being/life in the blood of him. Exactly what did God breathed into the nostrils of man made from the the dust of the ground? What did Jesus, the Son of God, the Word made flesh, dismiss unto the hands of the Father?

    Magic blood or just blood with Spirit from God resulting in soul/life without spot and without blemish =
    Atonement?
     
    #115 percho, Mar 11, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exactly. Many here believe the passage is vorrect "when properly understood" (the cry of every cultist), or what they feel it "teaches", or when "interpreted properly".....BUT what if it means exactly what is written?

    The reason Penal Substitution Theorists cannot accept Scripture as God delivered it is that God's Word is in conflict with their Theory. So something must give. Therefore they vonclude Scripture must mean something other than it states.
     
    #116 JonC, Mar 11, 2022
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    Here we see JonC reverting to his old ways.
    THE ORIGINAL QUOTE BEING DISCUSSED WAS FROM MT.8 QUOTING iSA 53;4-5.

    Here it is; Jonc

    Notice Jonc does not mention the cross in this post.
    I posted this to Jonc;

    14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

    15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

    16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
    He healed them, he removed the problem.

    Speaking of the Mt.8 passage.
    The scripture says nothing about Jesus
    "bore our sins in His body" as you claim.

    It says nothing about;
    " He shared in our sickness"

    No he healed them and none of the sickness was in His body, He did not share our sickness.
    You take half a verse explained by The Holy Spirit in MT 8, and you try and fudge it to explain away the atonement verses used elsewhere.
    Your use of part of this verse is not correctly using the scripture, but twisting it in an effort to deflect from the other verses employed.


    jONC DENIES THAT NOW JUMPING FORWARD TO 1 PET2:24 WHICH IS A PROOF FOR PSA. LOL.

    SEE THE POSTS 64-69...JONC DID NOT MENTION THE CROSS BUT GAVE A WRONG VIEWOF iSA.53,4-5

    Isaiah 53:4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    Jonc said
    You are confused here. Scrioture is mot talking about our colds, stomach aches, and coronaviruses.

    What Isaiah refers to as "our sickness" or "infirmaty" is our bondage under the consequences of sin and death. Paul says the same in Hebrews.



    You did not mention the cross and 1 pet.2:24. You add it trying to misrepresent what took place
     
    #117 Iconoclast, Mar 11, 2022
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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Yes, I see the Cross mentioned, where Christ was accursed of God and suffered for sins.
     
    #118 Aaron, Mar 11, 2022
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What explanation of this passage have you actually posted? Please link me to it.
     
    #119 AustinC, Mar 11, 2022
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  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    But we have to be careful with how we word things. To say that Christ had holy and pure blood means that there was a blending of His human and divine natures, thereby, torpedoing the Hypostatic Union of Christ. These two natures were distinct and there was no mixing of the two. He is fully God and fully human. He is not a deified human or a humanized deity. He is the God-man.
     
    #120 SovereignGrace, Mar 11, 2022
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