Featured That Christ suffered the wrath of God for our sins is confirmed by two scriptures.

Is there any mention of the Resurrection of the Dead in Exodus 3:6?

 

It is hardly surprising that many Christians think that "justified" and "righteous" are different words - they are! That they come from the same dik- root is, of course true, but one is a verb and the other is a noun. If you think that in Romans 3:10, 'There is none righteous, no, not one' means the same as 'there is none justified, no, not one,' then we're all in big trouble!

 

Yes. There is a parallel to the lost, Mark 9:48, ". . . their worm dieth not . . . " from Isaiah 66:24, ". . . for their worm shall not die . . ." to Psalms 22:6, ". . . I am a worm . . . ." Which goes to the mortality of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4 and the eternal suffering of the perishing, Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:48, ". . . the fire is not quenched."

 

Ah! You are (not very) subtly changing what you said.

'Just' and 'righteous' are synonyms, in Greek, at least, but 'justified' and 'righteous' are not. QED. Romans 3:10. When God justifies a sinner, He declares him to be righteous. But God never righteouses a sinner. Got it now?

And atonement is not the same as to reconciliation, however you try and dress it up. "The explanation of this English word [atonement] as being 'at-one-ment' is entirely fanciful" (W.E. Vine, Expository Dictionary). If you know of any authoritative source that declares them to be synonyms, I shall be interested to know of it. We are reconciled to God by the atoning sacrifice or (better) propitiation made to the Father on our behalf by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I worked out what you meant by "the sane thing" and I deciphered "unrughteous" but I don't know what God's "wats" are; you'll have to explain that.[/QUOTE]

 

Martin, I thought I had responded to this thread, but apparently it slipped past me.

Without breaking up your post to respond, I’ll give a broader responce.

At no time have I presented Christ as a sinner. That is what substitution presents, but transfer does not. Christ took the sin, bore the sin carried the sin, but was and remained sinless.

Some in reading from Corinthians (He became sin for us) read that as if Christ became a sinner. Never! Such denies a number of other passages.

I do not like Substitution - the word - for it, imo, leads to much mistaken presentations and views.

For example, as you possibly read how some treat the PSA view as Christ having to be punished because He took upon Himself sin, and God Must punish Sin!

Well, that sounds good and evangelist use it, but it isn’t consistent with Scriptures. It is the thinking the Jews had when they questioned the coming doom by a foreign ungodly army saying, “Gods cannot look upon sin.” Wrong thinking!

Throughout Scriptures God and Christ forgive sin, even without a sacrifice.

This in no manner removes wrath. Rather as Romans lists the qualifications for God’s wrath, it does in no manner fit the crucifixion.

One last point.

The Father and Son never were opposed to each other. As the Father spoke and did, the Son copied. What then was meant by the Garden prayer and request?

It was not dread, or fear as some posted, For Christ states early that reason He came to this earth. He knew down to the micron the depth of each lash, the damage of each blow, the attitude of each heart, long before the time of crucifixion. There were no surprises, and nothing that He was not completely in charge over.

Just as the High Priest had complete control over the proceedings of the yearly sacrifice, our High Priest also.

This is another reason I find no wrath coming from God at the crucifixion. Rather the plea of forgiveness for those that did not know what they were doing. Being in total control of every aspect.

imo, His body temperature rose, and the sweating like blood was the natural reaction the physical body has to highest stress situations. Because our Lord knew every aspect, His body (as human) would respond accordingly even though He would appear calm.

There are many humiliating aspects of the Roman interrogation and crucifixion the history opens, and the Scriptures very kindly do not mention. Most vile, most humiliating, most painful. Yet, our Lord spoke that believers would also drink that same cup. Paul (imo) was a bit proud he carried the marks. Perhaps another reason Wrath from God was not shown at the crucifixion, for then believers would expect wrath from God, too.

ok that is enough for this post.