help.....I need to understand this....

[timdabap]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

 

[37818]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

Why did Christ say He shed His blood to included lost Judas? ,Luke 22:20-21, ". . . the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

Because it pleased Him to do so (1 Corinthians 1:21). I recommend a reading of Psalms 115:3 and Isaiah 55:8-9.

 

[Deacon]

Let’s break that down into smaller pieces.

• Why would God command people to repent?
• Can an unregenerate person repent?
• Can a person the Scriptures call “dead in trespasses and sin” repent?
• Does God need to “enter” the “dead” before He can make them repent? “… so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure”?

Observations:
1. Some of the phrases and concepts are word pictures, synonyms
2. Some are terms were used exclusively by the apostles.
3. Some of the ideas have been incorporated into complicated theological structures, perhaps burdening them with idea beyond the original intent.

Rob

 

[agedman]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

No. Just because God knows, does not create meaning in us.

He is the creator, and He chooses according to His glory and desires.

All are dead in trespasses and sin. All are "condemned already."

All are given His light (see Romans 1), but all turn away from the light to dwell in their own understanding.

For His glory His Spirit goes about convicting of sin, pressing the need for righteousness, and that judgement comes after death. But none turn, and His Spirit will not always strive against humankind.

Therefore, the just and justifier does select of His divine desires those who He will redeem to Himself for His glory.

 

[timdabap]

Why did Christ say He shed His blood to included lost Judas? ,Luke 22:20-21, ". . . the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

Judas was not included in His redeemed. He instituted the Lord's Table AFTER He told Judas to do what He was supposed to do. Read all the accounts.

 

[timdabap]

No. Just because God knows, does not create meaning in us.

He is the creator, and He chooses according to His glory and desires.

All are dead in trespasses and sin. All are "condemned already."

All are given His light (see Romans 1), but all turn away from the light to dwell in their own understanding.

For His glory His Spirit goes about convicting of sin, pressing the need for righteousness, and that judgement comes after death. But none turn, and His Spirit will not always strive against humankind.

Therefore, the just and justifier does select of His divine desires those who He will redeem to Himself for His glory.

That is one convoluted view, and I thought I'd heard it all.

 

[37818]

Judas was not included in His redeemed. He instituted the Lord's Table AFTER He told Judas to do what He was supposed to do. Read all the accounts.

According to Luke, Judas was there at the instituting of the rembrance, ". . . he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

 

[timdabap]

Because it pleased Him to do so (1 Corinthians 1:21). I recommend a reading of Psalms 115:3 and Isaiah 55:8-9.

Sheesh....(apologies if that is considered a bad word).

so it is pleasing to God to make a fool of Himself by requiring counter-productive actions ?
Sounds a lot like my pentecostal half-sister commanding a water flooded car, stalled in knee deep water, under a heavy downpour, with the flood rising, to start, in the name of Jesus.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Is it GOD'S fault that man is dead in sin, incapable of even seeking God, an inveterate enemy of all righteousness? (Clue: God's not the one already damned for not believing/repenting)

The spiritual condition of man to obey doesn't change God's eternal demand that man repent and believe the Gospel. God would be 100% just to simply damn Adam and all his race to hell without ANY redemptive hope. The great miracle here is the God saves anyone at all.

 

[canadyjd]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

So, basically, you want to know why the command to repent if human beings are unable to repent without God’s intervention?

I’ll answer, but first consider this question and decide if there is any difference with your question.

Why did God give the OT Law as a way of righteousness, knowing that no man would ever be justified by keeping the Law?

The answer to both is it demonstrates what God expects of us. The command to repent demonstrates what God expects of us.

When we realize, though the intervention and conviction of God Holy Spirit, that we cannot do what God expects of us on our own, but must rely on Jesus as our Savior, then we can repent and trust Jesus to be our righteousness.

Hope that helps.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Judas was not included in His redeemed. He instituted the Lord's Table AFTER He told Judas to do what He was supposed to do. Read all the accounts.

so Luke is WRONG? No other Account disagrees with Luke, that Judas was present at the Lord's Supper, and took it, and was told by Jesus, that His Blood was to be shed for him as well!

This is what REFORMED commentators say

Matthew Henry,

"By placing this after the institution of the Lord’s supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord’s supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table."

John Gill

"From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over"

It is very clear from this, that Judas is also included in the "many" for whom Jesus died. This is also admitted to by John Calvin, where commenting on the same words in Mark's Gospel (14:24), says;

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse."

It is clear from Calvin’s comments on this verse, that Judas is included in the word “many”.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

if you read John 3:16-18, you will see the Gospel, that is the universal Saving Love for the entire human race, but only those who accept Jesus Christ, will be saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

I have noticed that we always tend to look at election from the side of God excluding those who are not elect and the possible unfairness of it. I have realized that we often overlook the other aspect of election - the comfort it gives to those who believe.

How do you know you are elect? Well, we have the fact that we have repented of our sins and come by faith to Christ. And if we have been Christians for a while we can look at our walk and see if there is any evidence of being led by God. But most of us have weak faith that can waver, we still fall into sin, while we should have a witness of the Spirit to our spirit how often do we wonder if it's real or not?

What if "election" as taught in scripture has a purpose of giving those of us who believe comfort and security. The idea that God, in all his power and sovereignty is responsible for your salvation and has stopped at nothing to bring you to faith, in spite of your doubts, fears and failures. I came across that reading the following: Part II, Sermons Published in 1721.
Sermon No. 2 "The Strength of Faith" by John Owen

The unregenerate man doesn't know or care that God commands him anything. He doesn't hear, and he wouldn't come if he did. But for us who believe, with all our imperfections we know from the doctrine of election that we have been called, we are elect, and we will not be cast out. It does not depend on us alone. Thank God!

 

[percho]

Is it GOD'S fault that man is dead in sin, incapable of even seeking God, an inveterate enemy of all righteousness? (Clue: God's not the one already damned for not believing/repenting)

The spiritual condition of man to obey doesn't change God's eternal demand that man repent and believe the Gospel. God would be 100% just to simply damn Adam and all his race to hell without ANY redemptive hope. The great miracle here is the God saves anyone at all.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How was God going to do that above, had Adam not sinned and brought the death ?

without ANY redemptive hope

For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

Is that redemptive hope from the subjected vanity?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Is it GOD'S fault that man is dead in sin, incapable of even seeking God, an inveterate enemy of all righteousness? (Clue: God's not the one already damned for not believing/repenting)

The spiritual condition of man to obey doesn't change God's eternal demand that man repent and believe the Gospel. God would be 100% just to simply damn Adam and all his race to hell without ANY redemptive hope. The great miracle here is the God saves anyone at all.

if God demands that man is to repent and believe in the Gospel, and by "man" it means "the entire human race". Then it must mean that God has provided provision in the Death of Jesus Christ, for the sins of "the entire human race", which is the universal death of Jesus Christ (not universal salvation).

ALL sinners are deserving of eternal damnation, as there is NONE that is good. There is NONE who will, in and off themselves seek after God, for their salvation. It required that God the Holy Spirit, first CONVICT the sinner of their sin, their need to repent of their sins, and to believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord.

 

[timdabap]

if God demands that man is to repent and believe in the Gospel, and by "man" it means "the entire human race". Then it must mean that God has provided provision in the Death of Jesus Christ, for the sins of "the entire human race", which is the universal death of Jesus Christ (not universal salvation).

The Bible clearly states that His Name shall be called Jesus, because He shall save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21 kjv). The entire human race may be His creation, but the entire human race is not His people.
In Egypt, everybody was His creation, but He sent Moses to demand that Pharaoh release a portion of that population in Egypt He called HIS people, and only them.
His blood protected only that portion of Egypt's population that were Hebrews, Jews, Israelite, whatever you want to call them.
The instruction to kill a passover lamb and to smear doorposts with its blood was given only to His people in Egypt, the Jews.
So the death AND resurrection of Jesus Christ is for a particular portion of the human race, those individuals the Father foreknew, and the Spirit sanctified. (1 Peter 1:2 kjv).

ALL sinners are deserving of eternal damnation, as there is NONE that is good. There is NONE who will, in and off themselves seek after God, for their salvation. It required that God the Holy Spirit, first CONVICT the sinner of their sin, their need to repent of their sins, and to believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord.

This is why I posted that thread on Gospel salvation.
THAT salvation REQUIRES all things you said of those already regenerate.
That salvation is synergistic in that the blessings of eternal life may be experienced here in this plane we call time by those who are regenerate IF they do those things you stated and which are given as necessities by those who preach a universal atonement: repent. convert, obey, faith, faithfulness, etc.

The salvation which is of God, by God, and in God, wrought by Him in Christ had no pre-requisite or any kind of requisite other than mercy and grace (Titus 3:5), the humility and obedience of the Son (Philippians 2:8).

It is always sad when people whom Christ bled and died for, for whom He offered Himself to the Father, makes their eternal salvation all about themselves and grab glory from God.

 

[agedman]

The Bible clearly states that His Name shall be called Jesus, because He shall save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21 kjv). The entire human race may be His creation, but the entire human race is not His people.
In Egypt, everybody was His creation, but He sent Moses to demand that Pharaoh release a portion of that population in Egypt He called HIS people, and only them.
His blood protected only that portion of Egypt's population that were Hebrews, Jews, Israelite, whatever you want to call them.
The instruction to kill a passover lamb and to smear doorposts with its blood was given only to His people in Egypt, the Jews.
So the death AND resurrection of Jesus Christ is for a particular portion of the human race, those individuals the Father foreknew, and the Spirit sanctified. (1 Peter 1:2 kjv).



This is why I posted that thread on Gospel salvation.
THAT salvation REQUIRES all things you said of those already regenerate.
That salvation is synergistic in that the blessings of eternal life may be experienced here in this plane we call time by those who are regenerate IF they do those things you stated and which are given as necessities by those who preach a universal atonement: repent. convert, obey, faith, faithfulness, etc.

The salvation which is of God, by God, and in God, wrought by Him in Christ had no pre-requisite or any kind of requisite other than mercy and grace (Titus 3:5), the humility and obedience of the Son (Philippians 2:8).

It is always sad when people whom Christ bled and died for, for whom He offered Himself to the Father, makes their eternal salvation all about themselves and grab glory from God.

This is a good presentation.

The only adjustment that I would have made is that any that did not have the blood and abide in the house had their firstborn dead. Though the word went out “to the Jew first” the message was to all.

This is evident because of the “mixed multitude” that also accompanied the Jews. Imo, representing that future in which the ethnic barrier of the gospel is removed and as Christ said one won’t have Togo to a certain place to worship.

Just my thinking, which matters so little.

 

[timdabap]

This is a good presentation.

The only adjustment that I would have made is that any that did not have the blood and abide in the house had their firstborn dead. Though the word went out “to the Jew first” the message was to all.

This is evident because of the “mixed multitude” that also accompanied the Jews. Imo, representing that future in which the ethnic barrier of the gospel is removed and as Christ said one won’t have Togo to a certain place to worship.

Just my thinking, which matters so little.

Everybody's thinking matters little, not just yours.
The only thing that matters is God's thinking, which finite man allegorizes, spiritualizes, often to his own error and confusion.
Like, now, that you mentioned the "mixed multitudes", the law on strangers wanting to join the chosen national people, that verse in Revelation 5 where the redeemed of the blood are referred to as having been taken from all nations, tongues, tribes, kindred, Joseph's coat of many colors....these all come to my mind and I am tempted to allegorize them or spiritualize them, something I avoid doing.
Or God could be pointing to the future time of the cross when Gentiles, too, should be given access to the blessings that Jews have in knowing about God's word, and being blessed with that manna, as the same mixed multitude ate of the same manna in the wilderness, and drank of the same Rock. and, (likely) circumsized somewhere along the wandering
In His own time, the Spirit teaches what He wants taught to those He calls into the gospel ministry,
.

 

[Aaron]

Why would God, who KNOWS that unregenerate man is DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, command man, to repent, when He knows fully well, He, the Life, must first enter him, the dead, so He can make him to will and to do of His good pleasure ?
Isn't that like plugging something to a dummy outlet and expect current to flow into it ?

Are you saying God doesn't know some things?