The GOD that refuses to save

[atpollard]

Yep everyone has that opportunity to hear the Gospel and respond?

Good answer ... clear and concise.
Agree to disagree:

A Jew in Jerusalem when Jesus was speaking had a better chance to hear the Gospel than an Aztec living in Central America at that exact same moment. Unequal opportunity (but the result is still 100% dependent on the work of God rather than man).​

 

[Revmitchell]

You are but not intentionally. The equal chance is in our unregenerate state. The offer is available to all who will take it. But nobody will. So yes, everyone has an equal chance and everyone equally rejects that chance. So God chose to save some by changing their stance.

Sorry I disagree, if God does not change all equally then everyone does not have an equal chance.

 

[atpollard]

Why do you limit God?

Why do you refuse to differentiate between what God CAN DO (anything) and what God DOES DO (scripture)?
God CAN save everyone without exception. God's Word says that MOST will go to Hell, so clearly God DOES NOT save everyone (admitting that God does not save everyone is not the same as claiming that God cannot save everyone).

 

[atpollard]

Sorry I disagree, if God does not change all equally then everyone does not have an equal chance.

Is there a verse that leads you to believe that everyone has an equal chance?

 

[Silverhair]

Ok you can quit using the 1 Tim. 2:4 verse because you a take it out of context and I will never let you get by with that. You realize if God wanted all to be saved, all would be saved. If he doesn't have the power to save them, that makes man more powerful than God. That is not what the Bible teaches. God's will is always accomplished. Or do you believe in a puny God?

So why don't you enlighten us as to what the context means oh learned one. Try to avoid your calvinism if you can and just stick to the text.

Joh 6:39 "This is the will G2307 of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 "For this is the will G2307 of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will G2307 have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

G2307 what one wishes or has determined shall be done
What is the will of God?
1] that Christ Jesus loos none that are given to Him &
2] that those that behold and trust in the son have eternal life

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires G2309 all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

G2309 to will, have in mind, intend
What is the desire of God?
That all men be saved.

So the question is how or why are men saved? Answer: look at Joh 6:39-40 or for even more clarity look at Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:9-10.

So, Yes I agree Gods' will is always accomplished. And His will is that those that believe in His son will be saved. It's all right there in scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

So GOD told Adam to sin?
God MADE me disobey Him?
God threw NOBODY in the pool.

No, I was quite capable of taking my innate sinful proclivities and running with them without the need to blame "Satan" or "God" for MY choices. I may have been born with two strikes, but I earned the third strike and expulsion from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct completely on my own.

The only thing God is guilty of is offering MERCY where JUSTICE was deserved.
I am sorry that you cannot see that, but my responsibility is to TELL YOU. God is responsible to CONVINCE YOU and you are responsible to "work it out with fear and trembling". My work is done.

Shalom (that means "peace and total well being") ... my prayer for you.

It is the calvinist theology that you are clinging to that causes the problem. Calvinism wants to restrict what God can do and at the same time claim to follow the bible. If you can not see your error I have shown you via scripture then there is not much more I can help you with. Perhaps God will, in His mercy, open your eyes to the truth of scripture. I will pray for you as I pray for all those that are being misled.

 

[Silverhair]

Good answer ... clear and concise.
Agree to disagree:

A Jew in Jerusalem when Jesus was speaking had a better chance to hear the Gospel than an Aztec living in Central America at that exact same moment. Unequal opportunity (but the result is still 100% dependent on the work of God rather than man).​

You have read
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

God can use any means that He wants to open a persons eyes but the person still has to come to the light on their own. You are still stuck on this idea that God has to drag people to Himself. The ULI of tulip is one of the Achilles heels of calvinism. You just can not or will not see it.

 

[Reformed1689]

So why don't you enlighten us as to what the context means oh learned one. Try to avoid your calvinism if you can and just stick to the text.

Joh 6:39 "This is the will G2307 of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 "For this is the will G2307 of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will G2307 have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

G2307 what one wishes or has determined shall be done
What is the will of God?
1] that Christ Jesus loos none that are given to Him &
2] that those that behold and trust in the son have eternal life

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires G2309 all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

G2309 to will, have in mind, intend
What is the desire of God?
That all men be saved.

So the question is how or why are men saved? Answer: look at Joh 6:39-40 or for even more clarity look at Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:9-10.

So, Yes I agree Gods' will is always accomplished. And His will is that those that believe in His son will be saved. It's all right there in scripture.

Yes, now deal with the fact that none seek after God and then come back and talk to me.

 

[Reformed1689]

Sorry I disagree, if God does not change all equally then everyone does not have an equal chance.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. That is a different opportunity though. But as far as the general opportunity, everyone has an equal and fair shot.

 

[Reformed1689]

You are still stuck on this idea that God has to drag people to Himself.

Because that is what Scripture actually states. Nobody comes to God on their own.

 

[AustinC]

You have read
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

God can use any means that He wants to open a persons eyes but the person still has to come to the light on their own. You are still stuck on this idea that God has to drag people to Himself. The ULI of tulip is one of the Achilles heels of calvinism. You just can not or will not see it.

Funny where you stop in quoting Romans 1. Had you kept going you would see that Romans 1 destroys your own argument.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
~ Romans 1:21-23

What did Jesus say about dragging (drawing) people to himself?

Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
~ John 6:43-47

Do you see that Jesus tells you this truth or can you not see this?

 

[Reformed1689]

Funny where you stop in quoting Romans 1. Had you kept going you would see that Romans 1 destroys your own argument.

You can claim anything when you take things out of context....

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, now deal with the fact that none seek after God and then come back and talk to me.

That was a non response. Where is the great insight you were going to give.

You are just a lot of blow and bluster.

 

[Silverhair]

Funny where you stop in quoting Romans 1. Had you kept going you would see that Romans 1 destroys your own argument.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
~ Romans 1:21-23

What did Jesus say about dragging (drawing) people to himself?

Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
~ John 6:43-47

Do you see that Jesus tells you this truth or can you not see this?

How does that destroy what is said in Rom 1:18-20? Does Rom 1:21-23 say people now have an excuse, no. Are men turned over to their own desires sure. We see that all the time. But you have to read into the text that it is impossible for man to turn and trust in God. You have to discount all the scriptures that show man trusting in Christ Jesus after hearing the gospel. But then why would I be surprised that you can not see that as it does not fit into your theology so you just discount it.

Austin why do you forget to include all the text. How doe God draw people? Well it was right there in the text, must be those calvinist glasses that made you miss it "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me"

Do you see that Jesus tells you this truth or can you not see this?

 

[AustinC]

How does that destroy what is said in Rom 1:18-20? Does Rom 1:21-23 say people now have an excuse, no. Are men turned over to their own desires sure. We see that all the time. But you have to read into the text that it is impossible for man to turn and trust in God. You have to discount all the scriptures that show man trusting in Christ Jesus after hearing the gospel. But then why would I be surprised that you can not see that as it does not fit into your theology so you just discount it.

Austin why do you forget to include all the text. How doe God draw people? Well it was right there in the text, must be those calvinist glasses that made you miss it "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me"

Do you see that Jesus tells you this truth or can you not see this?

First, Romans 1 shows that no one seeks God. Paul makes it even more clear in Romans 3.
Second, only those whom God makes alive can hear His voice (Ephesians 2). In each case you have a terribly weak argument.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 303 am EDT (Fri)/ 1203 am PDT (Fri)

 

[Silverhair]

First, Romans 1 shows that no one seeks God. Paul makes it even more clear in Romans 3.
Second, only those whom God makes alive can hear His voice (Ephesians 2). In each case you have a terribly weak argument.

Romans 1 shows that man loves his sin but you have to read into it that no one seeks God. Your calvinism again. Paul was writing to the saints in Rome so that puts water on your argument.

Then you jump to the calvinist standby verses Rom 3:10-18. Your not very original are you. This has been dealt with so many times that there should be a boiler plate for it. Those verses are a Midrash.

It's simply a commentary on general human nature, how selfish and self-centered we are, how much we love our sin, how all humans are fallen, how we have no righteousness of our own to earn our salvation.
That no sinner naturally seeks after God is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him in the context of God’s enlightenment (Joh_1:9), conviction (Joh_16:8), and drawing (Joh_12:32) it's just that most choose not to.
These 9 verses are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

Now I am sure you will disagree but like they say, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" or in your case you can show Austin the truth but you can not make him accept it.

You have convinced yourself that calvinism is true so it is hard for you to see the truth of scripture. It is sad really, because I really believe that you want to present the bible truths. It is just that you have let mans theology cloud your mind and turn you away from scripture.

 

[atpollard]

God can use any means that He wants to open a persons eyes but the person still has to come to the light on their own.

… says what verse?

 

[AustinC]

… says what verse?

Great question.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 1 shows that man loves his sin but you have to read into it that no one seeks God. Your calvinism again. Paul was writing to the saints in Rome so that puts water on your argument.

Then you jump to the calvinist standby verses Rom 3:10-18. Your not very original are you. This has been dealt with so many times that there should be a boiler plate for it. Those verses are a Midrash.

It's simply a commentary on general human nature, how selfish and self-centered we are, how much we love our sin, how all humans are fallen, how we have no righteousness of our own to earn our salvation.
That no sinner naturally seeks after God is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him in the context of God’s enlightenment (Joh_1:9), conviction (Joh_16:8), and drawing (Joh_12:32) it's just that most choose not to.
These 9 verses are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

Now I am sure you will disagree but like they say, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" or in your case you can show Austin the truth but you can not make him accept it.

You have convinced yourself that calvinism is true so it is hard for you to see the truth of scripture. It is sad really, because I really believe that you want to present the bible truths. It is just that you have let mans theology cloud your mind and turn you away from scripture.

I don't have to read anything into it. I just have to follow Paul's argument through Romans. In Romans 3 Paul is in your face, telling you no one seeks God.
Silverhair, it is you who is being dishonest with scripture. When you do that you end up falling on your Calvinist boogeyman as the crutch you use to not change your error in thinking. Literally no one has brought up Calvin...except you.