Romans 9 doesn't prove Calvinism; it proves the oppositie

[Eternally Grateful]

Here we see "Nullification Ploy" number 7. Claim because a main point in a passage is "A", then other points such as "B" can be ignored because of "context." Total fiction, nonsense, and absurdity.

Pay no attention to those who claim scripture does not mean what it says because of "context."

Romans 9 does not prove Calvinism, it proves the opposite.

You want to keep on this charade of accusing me of being a calvinist. Your not helping yourself by accusing someone of something that is not true. You sticking your foot in your mouth.

Its not a ploy. And you are proving you do not even understand what I am saying. so again, your hurting your own position. and argument

 

[Van]

1. I am not a Calvinist advocate (I despise and preach against fatalism)
2. If we look at the Actual words of God spoken to Rebecca, We see it is not the older kid serving the younger kid. It is the older nation who will serve the younger

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

3. A fatalist uses this to say that God chose one child to salvation, but chose to condemn the other child to hell. all before they were born.

its not about the two kids. Its about 2 nations (Edom and Israel)

They never admit "it was said to her [Rebekah], “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” This concerned the twins. Thus a conditional election to fulfill God's purpose and plan.

Are the Calvinist's claiming Esau did not come out first? Nope. Are they claiming Jacob did not come out second? Nope. Are they claiming Esau did not serve Jacob? Nope. Are they claiming scripture does not mean what it says. You bet!!!

And save the "I am not a Calvinist" dodge, did you say which of the five points of the TULIP you disavow?

 

[AustinC]

1. I am not a Calvinist advocate (I despise and preach against fatalism)
2. If we look at the Actual words of God spoken to Rebecca, We see it is not the older kid serving the younger kid. It is the older nation who will serve the younger

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

3. A fatalist uses this to say that God chose one child to salvation, but chose to condemn the other child to hell. all before they were born.

its not about the two kids. Its about 2 nations (Edom and Israel)

First, really poor job regarding Esau and Jacob. Paul is not talking about nations, but about those two children specifically. The context is clear.
Second, no one is deserving of God's choosing them. Because God chooses to extend grace to one, this does not make God unfair to the other. If you want fairness, then prepare for all humanity to burn in hell. You want fatalism, try comprehending a fair God who extends no mercy or grace, just fairness.

It is God, choosing to be merciful when no mercy should be given. God chose to extend mercy to Jacob, not Esau. This is God's Sovereign right. It is the exact opposite of some morbid fatalism you have contrived in your brain. It is an incomprehensible act of mercy and grace to one who doesn't deserve any of which he receives.

It boggles my mind how the free will proponents actually see humanity as somehow good enough that God should just love their behavior and be overjoyed that humans, all by their little ole' selves just naturally want to be a slave to God's righteousness. God would, by that sick thinking, have to be an evil God if He didn't just adore those humans who brilliantly chose Him over the pantheon of other gods. All hail the human will!

Such thinking is just perverted, selfish, godlessness that takes away from the holy and sovereign God of highest heaven.

That you think God's Sovereign choice is evil fatalism says much more about your own pride and low view of God than it says about God and His revealed word in scripture. Your thoughts here are just appalling.

 

[Van]

Now we get if God chooses someone based on their characteristic (older for example) then they deserve the election. Nonsense. Does anyone chosen for salvation deserve salvation? Nope. So God choosing someone based on a characteristic does not mean they deserve to receive the result of election. Esau had not done anything bad, yet was to serve his brother.

The malarkey just keeps coming...

 

[Van]

You want to keep on this charade of accusing me of being a calvinist. Your not helping yourself by accusing someone of something that is not true. You sticking your foot in your mouth.

Its not a ploy. And you are proving you do not even understand what I am saying. so again, your hurting your own position. and argument

Still no answer, how gullible does this poster think we are?

Are the Calvinist's claiming Esau did not come out first? Nope. Are they claiming Jacob did not come out second? Nope. Are they claiming Esau did not serve Jacob? Nope. Are they claiming scripture does not mean what it says. You bet!!!

The choice of the twins demonstrates a conditional election, the older to serve the younger.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They never admit "it was said to her [Rebekah], “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” This concerned the twins. Thus a conditional election to fulfill God's purpose and plan.

Are the Calvinist's claiming Esau did not come out first? Nope. Are they claiming Jacob did not come out second? Nope. Are they claiming Esau did not serve Jacob? Nope. Are they claiming scripture does not mean what it says. You bet!!!

And save the "I am not a Calvinist" dodge, did you say which of the five points of the TULIP you disavow?

What part of "two nations" and "two peoples" do you have a hard time understanding?

I reject double predestination. I reject lack of free will. I reject regeneration occurring before justification, which is only accomplished by faith.

are you always argumentative like this? why can't you just ask a person what they believe and stop assuming

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Still no answer, how gullible does this poster think we are?

Are the Calvinist's claiming Esau did not come out first? Nope. Are they claiming Jacob did not come out second? Nope. Are they claiming Esau did not serve Jacob? Nope. Are they claiming scripture does not mean what it says. You bet!!!

The choice of the twins demonstrates a conditional election, the older to serve the younger.

lol

Romans 9 is not about salvation.

Your the one sticking your foot in your mouth trying to make a prophetic saying about two nations mean the election of a kid. Thats really no different than a calvinist would say. They too believe Paul spoke of two kids. Not two nations..

You helping them and their belief, Not hurting them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First, really poor job regarding Esau and Jacob. Paul is not talking about nations, but about those two children specifically. The context is clear.

first. poor understanding of what Paul was saying, Paul also quoted the words of God where he said Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. Spoken in Mica. long after the two kids were dead.

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

You do not quote another persons writing and take them to say something other than what they actually said. And paul was not saying God loved Jacob the kid and hated Esau the kid. As calvinists claim. That is not true at all.

Second, no one is deserving of God's choosing them. Because God chooses to extend grace to one, this does not make God unfair to the other. If you want fairness, then prepare for all humanity to burn in hell. You want fatalism, try comprehending a fair God who extends no mercy or grace, just fairness.

Your right, No one is deserving/ But your wrong if you think God extends grace to one and not another. God extends grace to everyone, It does not mean everyone will accept that grace. Its not Gods fault if someone denies him in unbelief. As romans 1 says, they have no excuse

It is God, choosing to be merciful when no mercy should be given. God chose to extend mercy to Jacob, not Esau. This is God's Sovereign right. It is the exact opposite of some morbid fatalism you have contrived in your brain. It is an incomprehensible act of mercy and grace to one who doesn't deserve any of which he receives.

Actually God showed mercy to Esau the kid. In fact if you study, It was Jacob who bowed to Esau. and was afraid of Esau.
God sovereign right is to do whatever he will. And it is Gods will that whoever sees and believed will not perish but have eternal life
God is a god of Love, as a God of love, he is allowed to do whatever he wants. You can not have a loving relaitionship apart from free will. If you force your kids to love yuou. thats not love, In fact, thats the exact lie satan told the world.

It boggles my mind how the free will proponents actually see humanity as somehow good enough that God should just love their behavior and be overjoyed that humans, all by their little ole' selves just naturally want to be a slave to God's righteousness. God would, by that sick thinking, have to be an evil God if He didn't just adore those humans who brilliantly chose Him over the pantheon of other gods. All hail the human will!

Well this just proves you do not understand what free will proponents believe, Like so many, You push you view of what you think they believe and consider it as gospel truth.

God saved people out of love and mercy, Not because they deserve it.

The tax collector was saved because he got on his knees and begged for Gods mercy. Not because he pumped his chest thinking he earned the right to be saved.

Such thinking is just perverted, selfish, godlessness that takes away from the holy and sovereign God of highest heaven.

That you think God's Sovereign choice is evil fatalism says much more about your own pride and low view of God than it says about God and His revealed word in scripture. Your thoughts here are just appalling.

Excuse me sir, But your the one wallowing in Pride. Not me.

I was saved because God saved me, Not because I was worthy or saved myself. I did not earn salvation by calling out on his name with a bancrupt spirit. God gets the glory for that not me.

 

[Reformed1689]

Are the Calvinist's claiming Esau did not come out first? Nope. Are they claiming Jacob did not come out second? Nope. Are they claiming Esau did not serve Jacob? Nope. Are they claiming scripture does not mean what it says. You bet!!!

Stupidity abounds. Van do you even know what you are talking about? You are making absolutely no sense at all.

 

[AustinC]

first. poor understanding of what Paul was saying, Paul also quoted the words of God where he said Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated. Spoken in Mica. long after the two kids were dead.

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

You do not quote another persons writing and take them to say something other than what they actually said. And paul was not saying God loved Jacob the kid and hated Esau the kid. As calvinists claim. That is not true at all.


Your right, No one is deserving/ But your wrong if you think God extends grace to one and not another. God extends grace to everyone, It does not mean everyone will accept that grace. Its not Gods fault if someone denies him in unbelief. As romans 1 says, they have no excuse


Actually God showed mercy to Esau the kid. In fact if you study, It was Jacob who bowed to Esau. and was afraid of Esau.
God sovereign right is to do whatever he will. And it is Gods will that whoever sees and believed will not perish but have eternal life
God is a god of Love, as a God of love, he is allowed to do whatever he wants. You can not have a loving relaitionship apart from free will. If you force your kids to love yuou. thats not love, In fact, thats the exact lie satan told the world.


Well this just proves you do not understand what free will proponents believe, Like so many, You push you view of what you think they believe and consider it as gospel truth.

God saved people out of love and mercy, Not because they deserve it.

The tax collector was saved because he got on his knees and begged for Gods mercy. Not because he pumped his chest thinking he earned the right to be saved.

Excuse me sir, But your the one wallowing in Pride. Not me.

I was saved because God saved me, Not because I was worthy or saved myself. I did not earn salvation by calling out on his name with a bancrupt spirit. God gets the glory for that not me.

Let's be specific. You were saved because God chose to save you, even when you were dead in your sins (Ephesians 2:4-5). You didn't do anything. You didn't choose God. In fact, you were in open rebellion when God chose to save you.
As to free will, I spent 40 years of my life in free will churches and Bible Institute teaching. It is sad how indoctrinated I was in a man-made theory that either bread my despair or my pride as I earnestly attempted to follow God and discipline myself to doing, doing, doing, while thinking my efforts were grace.

Now, you're not wrong in that God provides a temporary mercy and general grace to all his creation, allowing them to remain in rebellion for a season before their doom is sure. However, saving grace is when God chooses to break into to the slave quarters of sin and set you free, purely because you were listed in the New Covenant before the foundation of the world and it was your time to be set free and then bound in covenant to God as His child who receives the Inheritance of the covenant.

Esau did not receive the Covenant Inheritance that Jacob received. God chose Jacob. This is what God tells us in the Bible. We either receive it and believe it entirely, or we make up some other interpretation so that we keep trying to drive the car...expecting God to navigate.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let's be specific. You were saved because God chose to save you, even when you were dead in your sins (Ephesians 2:4-5). You didn't do anything. You didn't choose God. In fact, you were in open rebellion when God chose to save you.

Your right, I did not chose God. And your right, I did not do anything to earn salvation (that would be salvation by works)

But what you fail to comprehend is, I do not think those things are true either. I recommend instead of assuming you know what people believe. You actually ask them and get to know what they believe.

The biggest gripe I have with this argument on both sides. Is you have people who stereotype the other side. And attack based not on fact. But on what you thin, or what you assume.

There can be no honest. Biblical, brotherly conversation between two groups if this is how both sides are going to treat each other. Look how early you had a non calvinist calling me a calvinist. And you attacking me based on what you think I believe. And both of you are dead wrong.

As to free will, I spent 40 years of my life in free will churches and Bible Institute teaching. It is sad how indoctrinated I was in a man-made theory that either bread my despair or my pride as I earnestly attempted to follow God and discipline myself to doing, doing, doing, while thinking my efforts were grace.

Yet here you are so indoctrinated in your belief you can not even tell me what I believe, all you have done is give the calvinist argument word for word. No substance, Just tell the same argument and refuse to acknowledge what you say about others is wrong.

This is called a strawman argument my friend. The very argument you use against me can be used against yourself. It does not move the conversation forward. It does not help us understand each other. All it does it puts a wedge between us. And the two sides.

Let me give you a hint brother. Satan loves this, It falls right into his hand,, He uses it. And the world sees it.

Now, you're not wrong in that God provides a temporary mercy and general grace to all his creation, allowing them to remain in rebellion for a season before their doom is sure. However, saving grace is when God chooses to break into to the slave quarters of sin and set you free, purely because you were listed in the New Covenant before the foundation of the world and it was your time to be set free and then bound in covenant to God as His child who receives the Inheritance of the covenant.

Saving grace is offered to all mankind. God who is willing that non should perish, but that all should come to life. He sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but is born again and this life is Called eternal.

Esau did not receive the Covenant Inheritance that Jacob received. God chose Jacob. This is what God tells us in the Bible. We either receive it and believe it entirely, or we make up some other interpretation so that we keep trying to drive the car...expecting God to navigate.

God chose Israel. Jacob did not receive the inheritance. Yes he recieved the blessing But he recieved it because him and his mother plotted a plan to fool their father that he was Esau.

Yet Israel did, The moment Israel walked into Palestine and was given the land.

You need to read the whole story

You want to discuss the word. Let’s discuss the word. You want to act like a proud indoctrinated person who just argues the calvinist story and falsely accuse people. Then I will let you go in peace.

I have better things to do.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Um, newsflash, you didn't actually say how that creates a conditional election. You just claimed it was so.

Well if you don't know, then he can't explain it to you... probably because he doesn't know either, but just trust him on this one.

 

[Reformed1689]

Saving grace is offered to all mankind. God who is willing that non should perish, but that all should come to life. He sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but is born again and this life is Called eternal.

Another classic out of context misuse of Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Another classic out of context misuse of Scripture.

Another classic case of I can not refute what the poster said. so instead I will make a strawman argument. Because I really have nothing to offer.

Its funny how no matter what christian chat I attend or try to be a part of. People act the same.

 

[Reformed1689]

Another classic case of I can not refute what the poster said. so instead I will make a strawman argument. Because I really have nothing to offer.

Its funny how no matter what christian chat I attend or try to be a part of. People act the same.

Not the case. I, and others, have explained this repeatedly and it gets old. But since you insist....

You referenced 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


And you referenced it in support of saying that God wants all men, meaning every individual, to be saved, unless I have misunderstood you. But a simple examination of the passage shows that is not what is being said here.

It says the Lord is patient towards you. Well the question is, who is the you?

Verse 8, as well as other verses in the book, show that the you is the beloved. The saved. The elect. God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish. This verse in no way suggest God is not willing that any person, individual, whatsoever, should perish. If God was not willing that ANY should perish, nobody would perish. But we know that is not the case.

So non-calvinists really need to stop using 2 Peter 3:9 as any defense of their position as it just makes you look ignorant of Grammar and context.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not the case. I, and others, have explained this repeatedly and it gets old. But since you insist....

I do not insist anything. I just think as brothers in christ. we should treat each other with more respect and stop with the comments which do not add to the conversation. but are a means of attempting to cut down your opponent. I would think that as people of God we would be above this kind of behavior. which is a mark of being in the world. as this is what they do (please note I am not just saying this of you. but of people on both sides of the argument who resort to this type of thing.

You referenced 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


And you referenced it in support of saying that God wants all men, meaning every individual, to be saved, unless I have misunderstood you. But a simple examination of the passage shows that is not what is being said here.

It says the Lord is patient towards you. Well the question is, who is the you?

Actually the greek word is ego. Which means I, or in the plural US. Not you.

Verse 8, as well as other verses in the book, show that the you is the beloved. The saved. The elect. God is not willing that any of the ELECT should perish. This verse in no way suggest God is not willing that any person, individual, whatsoever, should perish. If God was not willing that ANY should perish, nobody would perish. But we know that is not the case.

So non-calvinists really need to stop using 2 Peter 3:9 as any defense of their position as it just makes you look ignorant of Grammar and context.

He did not say the ELECT.

He said he was willing that NNE should perish.

And I also did not take this passage alone, I used it with all the passages in John, where Jesus said he was sent to the WORLD That whoever believes in him will not die. but will live forever.

If these people are already saved. Then God does not need to be patient. Because their salvation is already set in stone. He is patient because something still needs to be done. for these people who may perish if God is not patient,

If you want to discuss the word. But this calvinist non calvinist jabs from people is for the birds.. Remember there are outsiders reading these threads (hopefully) and when they see us acting like this. It just turns them off.

I know. Because it turned me off.. and I know many people who want nothing to do with God because of the way his people act.[/quote][/quote]

 

[percho]

1. I am not a Calvinist advocate (I despise and preach against fatalism)
2. If we look at the Actual words of God spoken to Rebecca, We see it is not the older kid serving the younger kid. It is the older nation who will serve the younger

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

3. A fatalist uses this to say that God chose one child to salvation, but chose to condemn the other child to hell. all before they were born.

its not about the two kids. Its about 2 nations (Edom and Israel)

Here's a thought.

Has the fulfillment of that statement taken place or yet still future?

Amos 9:12 comes to mind. And maybe the book of Obadiah as well.

 

[Reformed1689]

I do not insist anything. I just think as brothers in christ. we should treat each other with more respect and stop with the comments which do not add to the conversation. but are a means of attempting to cut down your opponent. I would think that as people of God we would be above this kind of behavior. which is a mark of being in the world. as this is what they do (please note I am not just saying this of you. but of people on both sides of the argument who resort to this type of thing.


Actually the greek word is ego. Which means I, or in the plural US. Not you.


He did not say the ELECT.

He said he was willing that NNE should perish.

And I also did not take this passage alone, I used it with all the passages in John, where Jesus said he was sent to the WORLD That whoever believes in him will not die. but will live forever.

If these people are already saved. Then God does not need to be patient. Because their salvation is already set in stone. He is patient because something still needs to be done. for these people who may perish if God is not patient,

If you want to discuss the word. But this calvinist non calvinist jabs from people is for the birds.. Remember there are outsiders reading these threads (hopefully) and when they see us acting like this. It just turns them off.

I know. Because it turned me off.. and I know many people who want nothing to do with God because of the way his people act.

[/quote][/QUOTE]
And you still ignore the context. Why do I even bother? You want to have a feel good humanistic version of the Bible? Go for it, but you are wrong.

 

[Reformed1689]

He did not say the ELECT.

Who do you think the elect are?

He said he was willing that NNE should perish.

Exactly, but who is the none referring to?

And I also did not take this passage alone, I used it with all the passages in John, where Jesus said he was sent to the WORLD That whoever believes in him will not die. but will live forever.

Right, he came for the whoever believes.

If these people are already saved. Then God does not need to be patient. Because their salvation is already set in stone. He is patient because something still needs to be done. for these people who may perish if God is not patient,

Who said they are saved already? That's why God is patient so their salvation is sealed.

 

[Guido]

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.