Featured THE MARK OF GOD AND BEAST

God calls us by our name, but the beast calls us by our number. Over the last 250 years we see the steady perfecting of a modern system.

Like John Paul II stated, we are facing the final confrontation of the Church and the anti church, the gospel and the anti gospel. Communism is not dead, it has developed from national, to empire, to Global, resulting in the elevation and worship of one man.

There have been many confrontations in times past, but the final one will be the Great tribulation. The end result will be God’s Will done on Earth as it is in Heaven, an Era of Peace.
This has not happened yet, we have only seen culminations to the final decisive confrontation.

Don’t invest completely in the Preterist view and interpretation otherwise you will not be equipped to see what is rising.

Blessings bro.

 

No escape to it.The prophesied events haven't yet happened, but they WILL.
The weatherman says it'll rain this eve, but the sky is clear right now. While, of course, he isn't 100% accurate as JESUS is, he's quite-accurate due to the meteorological tools at his disposal. Thus, it's quite likely to LITERALLY rain this eve. is that futurism?

Well, actually, you DO. You say the prophecies have already all been fulfilled, but when you can't find those fulfillments in history, you say they're symbolic.

Now, I never said NONE of the prophecies have come to pass, but the ones that have, have cometa pass LITERALLY. J & the temple were LITERALLY destroyed. There's been LITERAL wars & rumors of wars. There's been LITERAL persecution. Gentiles have LITERALLY trod Jerusalem underfoot & still do so. People have LITTRALLY been hauled into courts, with some being killed for their faith in Jesus. There's simply NO valid reason to believe those prophecies yet to be fulfilled won't be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

There's no logic in the pret view. God gave a series of latter-day prophecies; some have been fulfilled while others have not. But they all WILL be. How will they be fulfilled? LITERALLY, of course, same as the others have been. Prets keep saying they've all been fulfilled, but cannot **PROVE** a word they say in that regard. OTOH, we have PROVEN some of the prophecies have LITERALLY been fulfilled & so have no valid reason to believe the rest won't be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY, when God's time for their fulfillment arrives.

I DID. I quoted Rev. 19:11-21, PROVING your belief that Nero was the beast wrong, & so far you've made no attempt to defeat it. I said that if Nero had been the beast, JESUS would physically, visibly be here right now. Again, answered with silence. Right now, my points stand as true & proven, so I rest my case, waiting to see if anyone opposes it.

It's NOT a draw long as yo believe the codwallop of Gentry & those other quacks. I **PROVED** by SCRIPTURE, not by any man's reasoning, that had the beast already come, that Jesus would now be here. No one can dispute that fact without denying the truth of the Scriptures that prove it. But if you wish to not discuss it further, as you're tired of being proven wrong, I understand.

 

I've been a firm believer in the Preterist view since about 2007. I don't believe this view has hindered my ability to see what's going on in the world. That being said, I appreciate your concern. Blessings.

 

If I didn't know for certain that those prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70, I wouldn't make claim they were. If a passage is symbolic, it would be wrong to claim it is literal. You need to understand the prophecies in the same way that the original audience understood them.

Agreed - there's no reason to believe those prophecies have not been fulfilled just as literally. We are just awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment and the 2nd Coming, which will also be literal.

Let's see - "soon" means "soon", "at hand" means "at hand", "this generation" means those living at the same time - unless Jesus is talking about prophetic events. And I'm the one who is illogical???? You Futurists cannot prove your claims, so you change what the Scriptures actually say.

I've already answered your claim (see my response in post # 6). I don't expect you to believe it, since you don't believe in the Preterist view. I stand by it all the same.

Let's just call it a stalemate, as neither of us is going to budge. You will continue to believe the Futurist Fantasy, and I will continue to believe Scripture.

 

You DON'T know. You're just GUESSING. Those prophecies MUST be fulfilled TO THE LETTER, not just similarly to how they were written. Jesus said not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & that came to pass EXACTLY. The Romans, believing a rumor there was gold stashed between the stones, pulled them apart down to the foundation. (No gold was found.)
Now, can you show us from history when the prophecies of the seals, trumpets, & vials all came to pass, exactly, to the letter? I'll be patiently waiting!

NONSENSE!
The events have NOT yet occurred! You CANNOT show them to us from history.

 

Actually, I will turn your answer right back to you. You can't possibly know for certain that those prophecies are to be fulfilled in the future because they have already been fulfilled to the letter. (I didn't know that the Romans didn't actually find gold. That is ironic, isn't it?)

The judgments of Revelation are not told in a linear fashion like a history book. Rather, they are told in a cyclical fashion, repeating points. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials repeat much of the same judgments, but with greater intensity with each retelling. Judgment was pronounced with the 7 Seals; Judgment was announced with the 7 Trumpets; and Judgment was executed with the 7 Vials.

The 1st Seal was when Rome conquered Jerusalem. The 2nd Seal was the war which followed, accompanied by the 3rd Seal of famine. These were followed by the 4th and 5th Seals (death when 1/4 of Israel was killed and the martyrs). The 6th Seal (great earthquake) was the Roman army killing the Jews that were hiding. The 7th Seal was a prelude to the 7 Trumpets.

The 1st Trumpet was when 1/3 of the land (of Israel) was burned. The "burning mountain" thrown into the sea (2nd Trumpet) was when 1/3 of the sea became as blood for the killing. This leads to the 3rd Trumpet where the waters were made bitter. The 4th Trumpet (sun, moon, & stars struck) was the powers were shaken. Locusts from the Pit (5th Trumpet / 1st Woe) was the 5 months of torment during the final siege of Titus. The 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe) were angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind. Finally, the Kingdom of Heaven is proclaimed with the 7th Trumpet. It would be ridiculous to believe that God will literally throw a burning mountain into the sea or that the sun, moon, & stars will literally be struck. That coupled with the repeated pattern of "1/3" show this must be symbolic.

The 1st Vial was sores on those who worshiped the Beast. The sea became blood from dying sea creatures in the 2nd Vial. Likewise, the rivers & springs became blood with the 3rd Vial. This speaks of massive slaughter. Men were scorched with fierce heat with the 4th Vial. (Surely you don't expect a literal cup to pour out on the sun.) This speaks of the Jews suffering. The darkness and pain upon the Beast's kingdom (5th Vial) was the coming end of Jerusalem. The 6th Vial describes the Euphrates dried up, 3 unclean spirits, and Armageddon. The unclean spirits were Satan, the Beast, & the False Prophet. This describes Titus coming. Besides, a dried up river would not affect modern warfare. Armageddon is a reference to a battle in 2 Chronicles 35:20-25. This is about the conflict between Rome & Israel. As a comparison, we might refer to a final defeat as someone's "Waterloo". We hope the situation in Ukraine doesn't become their "Alamo". Jerusalem split into three parts with the 7th Vial. This was 3 factions against each other (Eleazer, John, & Simon). The huge hailstones were 100 pound stones that the Roman catapults shot at Israel.

So, your patience has been rewarded with this explanation of how these judgments came to pass to the letter. I can go into more details, but I didn't want to do a verse-by-verse commentary. I'm sure you disagree as always, but that's okay. What more can either of us say that we haven't already said?

 

I see lots of imagination & guesswork in your explanation. I'm pretty sure the seals, trumpets, & vials will occur close together. They'll occur WORLDWIDE, as Jesus said the hour of trial will come upon the whole world.

As for the Euphrates drying up, quite a few people depend upon it for water, for all uses of fresh water. The hail=catapult stones is laughable. Your "explanation", likely from gentry's garbage, is pure conjecture.

I hope the HOLY SPIRIT opens your eyes to the TRUTH. I campaign against these false doctrines in the hope that others won't believe them. And the pret myth is as false as they get!

 

We do agree that the seals, trumpets, and vials are simultaneous. We disagree on the timing of their fulfillment. You find my views laughable. Then again, I find your views pure fantasy. Talk about pure conjecture, you are looking for literal fulfillment of symbolic events. You are only guessing that the Great Tribulation will be a worldwide event in the future. They happened just as Jesus told His disciples - within their lifetime. Maybe the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you one day. I will continue to counter your views to show others that the Preterist view is a logical and Scriptural alternative to the Futurist fantasies of the "Left Behind" stories.

 

Yes. They haven't happened yet.

Yes, the level of imagination equals that of Aesop.

But you can't BEGIN to disprove them.

No; the events will be as literal as those that have already occurred.

No, I'm NOT guessing.
Rev. 3:10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !
Their occurrence is NOT found whatsoever in history.

And the "Rev. 19:11-21 thingie" I posted proves preterism completely false. You have no valid answer for that one.

 

The timing of their fulfillment is the very essence of our debate. I've proven the claims of Preterism from Scripture and history. From your perspective, you would say that I've only stated my interpretation. OTOH, from my perspective, you haven't proven the Futurist view. You've only stated your interpretation.

We disagree regarding the literalness of these prophecies.

I've provided the answer for your Revelation 19:11-21 argument at least two or three times recently. My answer will not change. We might as well drop our debate in this OP as this is turning into "I say this" and "you say that", then we drop some sarcasm to make our point. We can disagree without arguing.

 

The timing is obvious from the FACT that the prophesied events HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED.

Yes, because you say those prophesied events that haven't yet occurred are symbolic. That simply isn't true because prophecies that HAVE already been fulfilled were fulfilled LITERALLY, so there's NO valid reason to believe the rest won't be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

Your answer simply isn't correct. Even you admit Jesus hasn't yet visibly, physically returned, but Rev. 19 plainly says He will return while the beast is in power. Reading the rest of Revelation, we don't see Jesus departing the earth again, so, if the beast has already come, he should still be in power, or Jesus would now be here, having disposed of him.

Your supposition that Nero was the beast is completely wrong, proven so by Scripture & history. Nero did NOT full most of the Scriptural criteria for the beast. And he was NOT cast alive into hell; his death was witnessed by several men. His body was seen; he had a funeral & was entombed in theMausoleum of the Domitii Ahenobarbi, in what is now the Pincian Hill area of Rome.

ALL the empirical evidence is against the pret myth.

 

The timing is obvious from the FACT that Jesus said those events would happen withing the lifetime of His original audience. Also, Scripture repeatedly said those events were "near", "at the door", etc. Why are you okay with claiming that "whole world" must be literal, but "near", "soon", etc. are not literal?

Your view only fits if you fail to understand what Jesus and St. John meant. Reading the rest of Revelation, we clearly see the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Your denial of symbolism keeps you from a proper understanding of prophecy.

All the Scriptural evidence proves Preterism, and it shows the Futurist view to be pure fantasy.

 

All about the judgement of the great harlot, apostate Judaism, the unfaithful wife of Jehovah. It was the logical conclusion to the 'ministration of condemnation and death':

18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26

Seven seals, seven trumpets, seven angels, seven bowls, read the curses of Lev 26/Dt 28 (and others) from the OT; the wrath poured out upon 'the land', the judgment of the great Harlot.

 

No, He DIDN'T. "This generation" is referring to the generation that'll see the beginning of those things.It'll see ALL of them. This is OBVIOUSLY-true, as the events haven't happened yet.

No matter how you holler about the "time", the SIMPLE TRUTH is that THOSE EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED. You cannot get by that FACT. Instead,you & other prets try to make those events "symbolic" because you think more of your gurus such as Gentry, etc. than you do of SCRIPTURE, HISTORY, & REALITY.

No one, Christian or Jew, denies the destruction of J & the temple. Jesus prophesied them & they LITERALLY cameta pass. Even YOU don't call that "symbolic"! But there's NO valid reason to deny the rest of the prophecies will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

No, it shows preterism to be phony as a Ford Corvette. You're gonna lose your pro-pret argument against anyone who knows Scripture & history, as the prophesied events haven't yet occurred. No beast, no miracle-working false prophet, no marka the beast, & certainly no physical, visible return of JESUS yet.

 

I studied that matter about 20 years ago & learned that the "7 times" refers to "sevenfold intensity", not 7 different occurrences. The punishments will become 7 times more harsh. That'll be seen as the trib will start out fairly mild, but grow in intensity.

 

Your argument is nothing more than circular reasoning. "These events have not happened yet because I don't think they have happened yet.". You insist that the fantastic imagery in Revelation is literal. Then you insist that simple, ordinary words & phrases like "soon", "at hand", & "this generation" should not be taken literally. You are inconsistent in your hermeneutics.

 

No, the events haven't happened yot because they HAVEN'T. You cannot show them to us in history. Simple as that.

 

You've just proven my point. Repeating our views over and over doesn't change anything. What more is there to say?

 

That I have proven my points & you haven't proven yours.

 

The only point you've proven is that your only argument that "the events haven't happened yet because they haven't happened yet". As I've just pointed out, this is classic circular reasoning.