Calvinism is Internally Inconsistent

[JonC]

I am sorry but I disagree vehemently. Recall God ordains whatsoever comes to pass but is not the author of sin.

This is an "internally inconsistent" statement from Calvinism's Confession. What does "ordain" mean? To predestine the occurrence. So God predestines our each and every sin, yet is not the author (cause) of our sin.

Hardening does not equate with "passing over." Hardening refers to rendering a person unable to grasp, understand or respond affirmatively to spiritual things. (See soil #1 of Matthew 13) In Romans 11, unbelieving Jews were hardened to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to Gentiles. If the Jews had been already unable to respond, no "hardening" would have been needed. So the concept that original sin rendered humanity unable to seek God and put their faith in Christ, is internally inconsistent with scripture.

There is no problem with the view God is the first to act in the redemption plan of God.

True....I stand corrected. Calvinism does try to explain this away....some even saying that God is the ultimate cause of sin.

Another inconsistency is affirming salvation by grace while really believing salvation is by perfect law keeping attributed to us.

But Calvinism is really a philosophy. So there will be some internal issues.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is an "internally inconsistent" statement from Calvinism's Confession. What does "ordain" mean? To predestine the occurrence. So God predestines our each and every sin, yet is not the author (cause) of our sin.

No that is not what that means.

 

[Reformed1689]

Another inconsistency is affirming salvation by grace while really believing salvation is by perfect law keeping attributed to us.

Strawman

 

[Silverhair]

No that is not what that means.

Ordained: order or decree (something) officially Oxford Dictionary

So with that definition in mind please tell us what "God has freely
and unchangeably ordained whatever happens." means to you in regard to the sins a man commits

 

[Reynolds]

If we accept a Calvinistic interpretation of scripture, then we accept an internally inconsistent interpretation of scripture. And an internally inconsistent interpretation of scripture is not the meaning of the Word of God; therefore it is a perversion of the Word of God.

I now challenge Calvinists to demonstrate that their interpretation is internally consistent, and ask non-Calvinists to show that the Calvinistic interpretation is internally inconsistent. If Calvinists cannot demonstrate that their interpretation is free from contradictions, then cannot demonstrate that what they are deriving from the Word of God is the meaning of the Word of God.

First, Calvinists say that God hardens people's hearts. Why does He harden their hearts if they have no capacity to believe in him of their own free will? For what purpose is this hardening of the heart? Is it to condemn them? With whom is he bearing patiently? Are these vessels fitted to destruction those whom he hardened? Then how is he bearing with them patiently?

Did God not reject from before the foundation of the world those whom he did not foreknow, according to Calvinists, if, as they say, the cause for their sin is his withdrawl of his presence from them? Is not God the first to act, rejecting them? They did not reject God; he rejected them. At least non-Calvinists believe that God wants peace with those from whom he withdrew his presence, who were his enemies because of their own free will.

Desires and free will are two different things. First, acting according to your desires is a decision. If, I desire to eat a cheeseburger, I can eat pizza instead. Why, because I have multiple desires, or reasons, between which I can choose. Ultimately, it's my own choice, not the power of my desires. No one has any excuse for acting in accordance with their desires, because they can in fact, choose to respond in faith to Christ, since he draws all men to himself. How can God draw all men to himself, and yet draw only the "elect"?

Sorry for my poor prose style and lack of systematic setting forth of argument and information. I will be working on that.

I think General and low Calvinism is indeed plagued with contradictions and mishandling Scripture. High Calvinism does not have that problem.

 

[Van]

I think General and low Calvinism is indeed plagued with contradictions and mishandling Scripture. High Calvinism does not have that problem.

Nice and informative observation. Thus "High Calvinism" is openly unbiblical whereas the other presentations are deceptively unbiblical and inherently inconsistent.

 

[JonC]

I think General and low Calvinism is indeed plagued with contradictions and mishandling Scripture. High Calvinism does not have that problem.

"High Calvinism" is the logical conclusion of "General Calvinism". It has worked through its philosophy very well. And, if you look at as a purely philosophical exercise, it is very coherent and precise....no Scripture needed.

 

[Van]

No that is not what that means.

Synonyms for ordain
Synonyms

• destine,
• doom,
• fate,
• foredoom,
• foreordain,
• predestine,
• predetermine,
• preordain

: destine, foreordain It is futile to try to avoid what destiny has ordained.

 

[AustinC]

It's interesting how this thread and non-reformed avoid the Bible and simply comment on some unspecified "high" or "low" Calvinism with no specificity. I take the lack of specificity to be people who like to whine with no substance to their whining.

 

[AustinC]

Synonyms for ordain
Synonyms

• destine,
• doom,
• fate,
• foredoom,
• foreordain,
• predestine,
• predetermine,
• preordain

: destine, foreordain It is futile to try to avoid what destiny has ordained.

So this is what God means when he says:
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding. God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
~ Ephesians 1:4-14

And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
~ Romans 8:28-30

How terrible to be predestined by God's grace to reconciliation and redemption.

Note: Every person in rebellion to God rejoices in their own imagination that they have fought God off. They don't even realize that God has given them over to their own lusts.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
~ Romans 1:21-32

 

[JonC]

It's interesting how this thread and non-reformed avoid the Bible and simply comment on some unspecified "high" or "low" Calvinism with no specificity. I take the lack of specificity to be people who like to whine with no substance to their whining.

From what I gather reading this thread "High Calvinism" would be 5 point Calvinism who view God as decreasing those who will be saved and those who will be condemned (reprobation). Christ therefore died for the elect and in no way for the "not-elect". God decreed the Fall, that the "non-elect" will not believe, etc. Rather than God choosing out of fallen man a people to save, God decreed prior to Creation two groups of people. "High Calvinism" does not have a problem viewing God as the ultimate cause of evil because the actual sins belong to the sinner (this is the weakest part of the philosophy, IMHO). The anti-missions movement was "High Calvinistic".

Often the idea that infants are baptized and will be saved based on the covenant relationship of the parent (see John Owen, for example).

"Low Calvinism" can include 5 pointers, but their views vary greatly. Often a point is left out or altered. God decrees to save some out of Falken man (after the Fall). John Calvin woukd probably fall into the "Low Calvinism" group, but he was at the start of the philosophy so it would not be fair to categorize his view). Low Calvinism contains the philosophy of Calvinism but tries to reconcile the philosophy with Scripture. Since the philosophy is in many points at odds with God's Word, different approaches are taken to reconcile the philosophy with Scripture.

 

[Van]

So this is what God means when he says:
SNIP
How terrible to be predestined by God's grace to reconciliation and redemption.

Note: Every person in rebellion to God rejoices in their own imagination that they have fought God off. They don't even realize that God has given them over to their own lusts. SNIP

Yet another copy and paste of huge amounts of non-germane verbiage.

Ordained means predestined. Full Stop

According to inconsistent Calvinism, God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin. I kid you not...

 

[AustinC]

From what I gather reading this thread "High Calvinism" would be 5 point Calvinism who view God as decreasing those who will be saved and those who will be condemned (reprobation). Christ therefore died for the elect and in no way for the "not-elect". God decreed the Fall, that the "non-elect" will not believe, etc. Rather than God choosing out of fallen man a people to save, God decreed prior to Creation two groups of people. "High Calvinism" does not have a problem viewing God as the ultimate cause of evil because the actual sins belong to the sinner (this is the weakest part of the philosophy, IMHO). The anti-missions movement was "High Calvinistic".

Often the idea that infants are baptized and will be saved based on the covenant relationship of the parent (see John Owen, for example).

"Low Calvinism" can include 5 pointers, but their views vary greatly. Often a point is left out or altered. God decrees to save some out of Falken man (after the Fall). John Calvin woukd probably fall into the "Low Calvinism" group, but he was at the start of the philosophy so it would not be fair to categorize his view). Low Calvinism contains the philosophy of Calvinism but tries to reconcile the philosophy with Scripture. Since the philosophy is in many points at odds with God's Word, different approaches are taken to reconcile the philosophy with Scripture.

No scripture, just opinion from people who want to be in control. Got it.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another copy and paste of huge amounts of non-germane verbiage.

Ordained means predestined. Full Stop

According to inconsistent Calvinism, God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin. I kid you not...

LOL, I quote scripture and Van calls it "non-germane verbiage." I cannot make up how funny that is. Van, I laughed out loud.

According to Van's twisted grasp of Calvinism "God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin."
I kid you not, that's what Van imagines Calvinists say.
Van, are you aware that your imagination isn't coming from God? You have bought into a lie from hell and you present it here to us as though it were truth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Low Calvinism contains the philosophy of Calvinism but tries to reconcile the philosophy with Scripture.

Except the reformed tradition is derived from Scripture, nothing to reconcile.

 

[Reformed1689]

LOL, I quote scripture and Van calls it "non-germane verbiage." I cannot make up how funny that is. Van, I laughed out loud.

According to Van's twisted grasp of Calvinism "God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin."
I kid you not, that's what Van imagines Calvinists say.
Van, are you aware that your imagination isn't coming from God? You have bought into a lie from hell and you present it here to us as though it were truth.

Exactly people like @Van @SavedByGrace @Guido and @Eternally Grateful and @Silverhair have no idea what Calvinism actually is.

 

[Van]

LOL, I quote scripture and Van calls it "non-germane verbiage." I cannot make up how funny that is. Van, I laughed out loud.

According to Van's twisted grasp of Calvinism "God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin."
I kid you not, that's what Van imagines Calvinists say.
Van, are you aware that your imagination isn't coming from God? You have bought into a lie from hell and you present it here to us as though it were truth.

Yet another pile of non-germane verbiage attacking me and avoiding these facts:
1) I post published Calvinist doctrine, not the frequent disavowals of the doctrine posted by deceit.
2) When the topic is "A" posting scripture whose topic is "B" the scripture is non-germane.
3) Ever notice how often Calvinists post "that is not what Calvinism claims" but do not offer the correct view?

 

[JonC]

No scripture, just opinion from people who want to be in control. Got it.

Of course there is no Scripture. We are talking about Calvinism. You asked the difference between "High Calvinism" and "Low Calvinism". The difference is not Scripture (they think that they affirm the same Scripture). The difference is philosophy.

There are no passages that say that God chose the elect out of fallen man or God chose the elect and reprobate before the Fall. This is all philosophy.

Theology is Christ-centered. Calvinism is not (it is a philosophy that seeks to know God via the mind of the Father, not Christ). There are no passages to offer.

 

[Reformed1689]

1) I post published Calvinist doctrine, not the frequent disavowals of the doctrine posted by deceit.

Ah, see you think you published Calvinist doctrine. But really, you posted Van's caricature of Calvinist doctrine which isn't Calvinist doctrine at all. Some would call it strawman.

 

[AustinC]

Of course there is no Scripture. We are talking about Calvinism. You asked the difference between "High Calvinism" and "Low Calvinism". The difference is not Scripture (they think that they affirm the same Scripture). The difference is philosophy.

There are no passages that say that God chose the elect out of fallen man or God chose the elect and reprobate before the Fall. This is all philosophy.

Theology is Christ-centered. Calvinism is not (it is a philosophy that seeks to know God via the mind of the Father, not Christ). There are no passages to offer.

Well, by your reasoning here, any organizing of thought from scripture cannot be understood from scripture. None of the views could therefore be anything but philosophy with no scripture. I guess this explains Jonnyianism as well.