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Featured Calvinism is Internally Inconsistent

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Guido, Mar 24, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for telling me why I can't defend the gospel, Jon. I'm sure Jonnyism is the true answer to all things intellectual.
    When you are capable of coherently expressing your view on the atoning work of Christ let us know.
     
    #101 AustinC, Mar 26, 2022
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  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I've yet to see a Calvinist on this board who cannot defend the views biblically and shred the "proof against" Calvinism to bits with biblical backing.
     
    #102 Reformed1689, Mar 26, 2022
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I never quite understood what you found so incoherent about my view. I'll repost it so that others can see just how crazy it sounds (in hopes some will get it):

    Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.

    My view certainly is not as complex as God having to punish sinful actions, so He put them on Jesus and punished them so that He could forgive wicked men.

    I get my understanding that men must die with Christ, that we must be reborn is kinda childish. But so what? That is what I read in the Bible, and that is good enough for me. You can keep all of your Reformed books and commentaries. I have enough in Scripture.
     
    #103 JonC, Mar 26, 2022
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I added bullet points, just to try figure out what you said as it still didn't make any sense. Other than the bullet points there is no grammatical change so I hope the moderators aren't upset. It is the only way for me to try figure out what you are trying to say.

    Unfortunately, I still have no idea how you get your points to somehow equal salvation from your sins.
    Moreso, it's like you are just picking fruit off a whole bunch of trees and saying you have an apple pie. There is no connection to the atonement. In fact, I can see no atonement in your view and absolutely no need for the Old Testament in your view. It's as if you have no use for scripture other than a couple cherrypicked random ideas.
    Sorry, Jon. I will go with 2000 years of orthodoxy on this one and stay away from jonnyism.
     
    #104 AustinC, Mar 27, 2022
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Silverhair,

    Calvinism is the biblical teaching.;
    Of the Holy Scriptures — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (the1689confession.com)

    Those who do not understand the teaching, never have understood it, or are in the midst of apostasy deny it is biblical teaching, say it is a theory or philosophy....

    philadelphia confession-chapter 1 (reformedreader.org)
     
    #105 Iconoclast, Mar 27, 2022
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here are unbiblical posts by those who oppose the truth known as Calvinism;
    Nothing edifying, just attack posts with no substance

     
    #106 Iconoclast, Mar 27, 2022
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I honestly see as much Scriptural support for H.C. as I see for any opposing position.
     
    #107 Reynolds, Mar 27, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand. And I suspected you would not see atonement in my view. In the post I even confessed that to many my view would appear as foolishness. But for those "with ears to hear" I will restate my understanding.

    Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
     
    #108 JonC, Mar 27, 2022
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do for some of it's conclusions but not how it arrives there.
     
    #109 JonC, Mar 27, 2022
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, those with ears to hear what you say will be those who follow Jonnyism, a unique philosophy of JonC that ignores the entire Old Testament, the covenants, and much of the New Testament in order to assert something God does not assert.
    I feel bad for anyone whose ears hear what you say on this matter. If they follow you, they will be going down the rabbit hole with you and Alice.
     
    #110 AustinC, Mar 27, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    They may. That is between them and God.

    I am not responsible for what other people believe and what other people reject.

    Christians hold different understandings. Some "Christians" are not even Christians and will hear the words "I never knew you". But even among the saved Christians will disagree because we are still human.

    For me, this is my belief and where I stand. You think it foolishness. You can't wee the atonement in my view. You think it is a "new philosophy" and is does not include the Old Testameny. I understand. But this is the "foolish philosophy" that I believe:

    Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
     
    #111 JonC, Mar 27, 2022
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If you actually study the bible, why do you need help. Did you provide support for the falsehood that the bible does not teach things happen by chance? Nope.
     
    #112 Van, Mar 27, 2022
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Falsehood piled on top of falsehood, words have meanings, and your claimed meaning is not found in dictionaries. OTOH, mine is. I kid you not...
     
    #113 Van, Mar 27, 2022
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is why you fail. You are looking for the answer to all things intellectual. This is why you consider my understanding to be foolish, some kind of "new philosophy".

    For the benefit of others who may happen by, I will again state this "foolishness", this "new philosophy" that does not meet your intellectual standards.

    Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
     
    #114 JonC, Mar 27, 2022
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  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Only when you deny clear scripture and or twist other scripture to fit your theology.
     
    #115 Silverhair, Mar 27, 2022
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  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Now why should I be surprised when a calvinist tells me that calvinism is the only truth. Using the a calvinist confession is just circular reasoning. Still does not help your case. When I see clear contradictions in the calvinixt writings am I just supposed to ignore them? NO. But then I am not a calvinist. I just trust the bible.
     
    #116 Silverhair, Mar 27, 2022
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  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I said THEOLOGICALLY. Use a Theological dictionary Van. Not that I expect you to, you would rather put forth false caricatures of others beliefs in order to attack a fairy.
     
    #117 Reformed1689, Mar 27, 2022
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Then you know nobody seeks God. Only those who God gives, come to Jesus. This does not include everyone.
     
    #118 Reformed1689, Mar 27, 2022
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What I find interesting about this thread is that still nobody has shown these imaginary internal inconsistencies with Calvinism.... Go figure.
     
    #119 Reformed1689, Mar 27, 2022
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Well if you cannot see salvation in what JonC posted then you should get glasses or perhaps learn to read. Just because he does not use your prescribed words, well what can I say. Perhaps your just not enlightened enough to understand the deeper things of scripture. Or I could fall back to that normal calvinist word for when someone questions them, mystery.
     
    #120 Silverhair, Mar 27, 2022
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