Calvinism is Internally Inconsistent

[Silverhair]

God hardens the hearts of those who willfully ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ) reject Him...
except for His elect, who He draws lovingly.

Not at all.

That the Lord hardens men's hearts and minds is completely Scriptural, and that He softens men's hearts and opens their minds is again, completely Scriptural.
Whether or not you believe it to be "circular reasoning", the Bible still says it, my friend.

You do believe the word of God, do you not?

Salvation is offered to all via the gospel message Joh 3: 14-17; Rom 1:16; Eph 1:13; Rom 10:14 Do you think that only your so called elect hear the gospel? Even those that hear have to make a choice believe or reject. Your theology requires that God wants all to be saved but really only some. So your theology makes Him seem schizophrenic or disingenuous. Your choice.

 

[AustinC]

Salvation is offered to all via the gospel message Joh 3: 14-17; Rom 1:16; Eph 1:13; Rom 10:14 Do you think that only your so called elect hear the gospel? Even those that hear have to make a choice believe or reject. Your theology requires that God wants all to be saved but really only some. So your theology makes Him seem schizophrenic or disingenuous. Your choice.

Do you mean this "so called" elect?
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1-3
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

Silverhair, it's not "so called" it is God taught, thus saith the Lord.

 

[JonC]

Do you mean this "so called" elect?
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1-3
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

Silverhair, it's not "so called" it is God taught, thus saith the Lord.

It is the "so called elect" when they are not yet saved. Scripture never speaks of the "elect" except they are already members of the body.

 

[Dave G]

Salvation is offered to all via the gospel message Joh 3: 14-17; Rom 1:16; Eph 1:13; Rom 10:14

No it is not.
The Gospel is the good news of salvation to and for God's elect.

Do you think that only your so called elect hear the gospel?

Yes.

Please see John 8:43-47.
Only those who are of God hear and believe God's words.

As for the elect being "so-called", God's word is very explicit about who they are...
They are "the whosoever believeth" from the heart my friend.

 

[Dave G]

Even those that hear have to make a choice believe or reject.

No, they do not.

His people automatically believe their Saviour's voice when He calls them through His word and by His Spirit,
while those that are not His people do not hear His words, nor do they truly believe them.

Your theology requires that God wants all to be saved but really only some.

My theology comes from reading and understanding His words, Silverhair, and nothing more.

I do not make requirements of Almighty God.
He does as He wishes in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

So your theology makes Him seem schizophrenic or disingenuous. Your choice.

Not "my choice"...
if it were up to me, I'd have thrown me in Hell where we all belong.

I only go by what He has revealed to me in His precious word.
It's all there, sir, all one has to do is believe it.


Again, I wish you well.

 

[AustinC]

It is the "so called elect" when they are not yet saved. Scripture never speaks of the "elect" except they are already members of the body.

Jon, Jon, Jon...no.
Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love.

 

[JonC]

Jon, Jon, Jon...no.
Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love.

You miss the point. Who is the audience (to whom is ephesians addressed)?

The lost? No. The elect.

You can say the elect (the "we") were chosen from the foundation of the earth.

But nowhere are individuals said to be among the elect prior to their rebirth.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you mean this "so called" elect?
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1-3
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

Silverhair, it's not "so called" it is God taught, thus saith the Lord.

Austin the ones that are called the "elect" are those that have trusted in Christ Jesus. Not, as you poist, the ones that God preselected to be saved.
The bible is clear that it is after hearing the gospel message and believing that message that God saves the person. You, on the other hand, want them saved so they can believe. Not biblical.

 

[Silverhair]

No it is not.
The Gospel is the good news of salvation to and for God's elect.

Yes.

Please see John 8:43-47.
Only those who are of God hear and believe God's words.

As for the elect being "so-called", God's word is very explicit about who they are...
They are "the whosoever believeth" from the heart my friend.

You are so desperate to avoid the truth of scripture that you will pull any verse out of context that you think will help you. John 8:43-47 Here Christ Jesus is just responding to the scribes and Pharisees {Jews} that even though they had seen Him they would not accept Him. Actually it is those who hear the word of God and believe the word of God that are saved.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You have it backward my friend. Just trust the word of God lean not on your own understanding.

 

[Silverhair]

No, they do not.

His people automatically believe their Saviour's voice when He calls them through His word and by His Spirit,
while those that are not His people do not hear His words, nor do they truly believe them.

My theology comes from reading and understanding His words, Silverhair, and nothing more.

I do not make requirements of Almighty God.
He does as He wishes in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

Not "my choice"...
if it were up to me, I'd have thrown me in Hell where we all belong.

I only go by what He has revealed to me in His precious word.
It's all there, sir, all one has to do is believe it.


Again, I wish you well.

I pray that you will actually believe what the word says. You have chosen to pick and choose verses that you think support your view but you have missed the mark. Why you struggle so hard to avoid the truth I do not know but I do hope that you will find the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Jon, Jon, Jon...no.
Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love.

Austin, Austin, Austin do you not see the key words in that verse "IN HIM". God chose us, those that believe, to be in Christ Jesus. This is not a mystery, it is clearly stated in the bible. How many times must you be told that we hear the gospel, we believe the gospel, God saves us {puts us in Christ}. that is not complicated, you just make it so by adding to scripture what is not there.

Even the quote you have posted shows what I have just said "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, [why] that we should be holy and blameless before him in love."
Even when you try to deny what we say you prove it by the scripture that you quote.

 

[JonC]

As Christians we should be devoted to Christ and to God's Word. There will still be disagreements as we are human.

But what I have seen on this thread and several other threads is Christiabs devoted to philosophy, theories, and worldly wisdom. They think Scripture (as it is written) to be foolishness so they rely not on God's Word but on what they believe God's Word "teaches" when "properly understood".

Over the past month I have seen Reformed Confessions, Reformed theology, and Reformed authors almost lifted up in worship as if they - rather than God - are the authority of our faith.

I have even seen a couple of members declare a passage to be error, or "new philosophy".

I understand that we will have, in this lifetime, worldly influences. We are not now what we will become when the regining is done. And I do gain from the writings of men like John Owen. I am not saying he was an evil man, quite the contrary. But he was a man and he made some serious errors in his theology (covenant salvation of infants, for one).

People - we HAVE to get back to the Bible. Stop trying to bypass God's Word. Stop trying to go around His Christ and the cross.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Yes, your view is by definition "double-speak".

When you quote Scripture you do not mean the words that you quote but the "teachings" and philosophies that you apply to those words.

o

We see scripture being read and taught all through the bible, you oppose yourself and the scriptural teaching by your posts.

I have no interest in "shutting you down". Others have shut you down on several threads (come to think of it, I actually did on one). But the point is Scripture shuts you down.

Dream on JonC

@Silverhair has done an outstanding job at pointing out your errors.

He thinks so and you like what he posts, but silverhair will soon find out that he agrees more than he thinks. HE HAS NOT exposed any error , just where he comes short of truth. Your hold his same errors so you cannot realize it yourself.

@Reynolds and @Van have as well.

Reynolds has just repeated his idea of what he thinks is "high Calvinism", he does not have it correct either.
He likes supralapsarianism for some reason.

We may not agree amongst ourselves but the one difference between us and you is we do believe that Scripture is the measure of doctrine.

No JONC I believe scripture is the source of our doctrine...Just i work to understand it in context, understand the words and word meanings. You trying to suggest I do not and try to explain it away and ascribe other things is a weak attempt to divert from your defective ideas.

You, on the other hand, rely on Reformed confessions and Reformed writers (like John Owen).

What you do not understand is God given teachers are a blessing and gift to the church. I can read two paragraphs of Thomas Watson, and hear more scripture explained and opened up more than 300 of your say nothing posts.
For you to show disdain for many of the solid works is shameful. You are welcome to remain ignorant. You can not touch Owen on the mortification of sin, on Communion with God, on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded, but you ridicule these caliber of gifted teachers. I have no trouble comparing what i believe and seeing what Gifted brothers have seen in the same scriptures.

There are no passages that support your belief.

THERE is nothing but scripture that supports my belief this explains to the world that you do not grasp the doctrines of grace, you never did, despite your claim. You try and make that claim, you might believe what you post, but No one that I see believes it.

You just try to use Scripture to prop up your philosophical views, and you fail.

lol that is your M>O> but now you try and project it on All the Cals here...epic fail, because people read the posts.

You complained about my view before, repeatedly, saying it is just Scripture without offering an explanation.

]No.. I said partial scripture cobbled together badly.
When asked to explain, you repeat the partial phrase over and over, JonC what does it mean He bore our sins? you repeat 10x...he bore our sins, he bores our sins, he bore our sins, you never answer

Have you ever considered that Scripture actually means what it says???

yes, everyday, but I also understand what it means unlike you.

The worst part is you risk become a stumbling to others who actually believe Scripture (rather than the philosophy you believe is taught) is God's Word.[/QUOTE]

That is you on display.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

o

We see scripture being read and taught all through the bible, you oppose yourself and the scriptural teaching by your posts.



Dream on JonC




He thinks so and you like what he posts, but silverhair will soon find out that he agrees more than he thinks. HE HAS NOT exposed any error , just where he comes short of truth. Your hold his same errors so you cannot realize it yourself.


Reynolds has just repeated his idea of what he thinks is "high Calvinism", he does not have it correct either.
He likes supralapsarianism for some reason.



No JONC I believe scripture is the source of our doctrine...Just i work to understand it in context, understand the words and word meanings. You trying to suggest I do not and try to explain it away and ascribe other things is a weak attempt to divert from your defective ideas.



What you do not understand is God given teachers are a blessing and gift to the church. I can read two paragraphs of Thomas Watson, and hear more scripture explained and opened up more than 300 of your say nothing posts.
For you to show disdain for many of the solid works is shameful. You are welcome to remain ignorant. You can not touch Owen on the mortification of sin, on Communion with God, on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded, but you ridicule these caliber of gifted teachers. I have no trouble comparing what i believe and seeing what Gifted brothers have seen in the same scriptures.


THERE is nothing but scripture that supports my belief this explains to the world that you do not grasp the doctrines of grace, you never did, despite your claim. You try and make that claim, you might believe what you post, but No one that I see believes it.




lol that is your M>O> but now you try and project it on All the Cals here...epic fail, because people read the posts.



]No.. I said partial scripture cobbled together badly.
When asked to explain, you repeat the partial phrase over and over, JonC what does it mean He bore our sins? you repeat 10x...he bore our sins, he bores our sins, he bore our sins, you never answer


yes, everyday, but I also understand what it means unlike you.

Let the readers decide.

Here is what I believe, the "foolishness", the "new philosophy" which led you to persecute me and others who dare disagree with your philosophy:

God loved the world by sending His Son that whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't think @SavedByGrace even understands the meaning of his own moniker.

It is kind of ironic isn't it?

 

[AustinC]

Let the readers decide.

Here is what I believe, the "foolishness", the "new philosophy" which led you to persecute me and others who dare disagree with your philosophy:

God loved the world by sending His Son that whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.

We have decided, Jon. You are wrong and Iconoclast is right.
You simply miss the whole picture and try to replace the whole with pieces that are disjointed.

 

[AustinC]

The interesting thing about this thread is that not one person complaining about Calvinism has ever laid out the inconsistencies in scripture that a Calvinist holds. Scripture is always left out and is replaced by ignorance of opinion by the non-calvinist.

 

[Silverhair]

JonC,

o

We see scripture being read and taught all through the bible, you oppose yourself and the scriptural teaching by your posts.



Dream on JonC




He thinks so and you like what he posts, but silverhair will soon find out that he agrees more than he thinks. HE HAS NOT exposed any error , just where he comes short of truth. Your hold his same errors so you cannot realize it yourself.


Reynolds has just repeated his idea of what he thinks is "high Calvinism", he does not have it correct either.
He likes supralapsarianism for some reason.



No JONC I believe scripture is the source of our doctrine...Just i work to understand it in context, understand the words and word meanings. You trying to suggest I do not and try to explain it away and ascribe other things is a weak attempt to divert from your defective ideas.



What you do not understand is God given teachers are a blessing and gift to the church. I can read two paragraphs of Thomas Watson, and hear more scripture explained and opened up more than 300 of your say nothing posts.
For you to show disdain for many of the solid works is shameful. You are welcome to remain ignorant. You can not touch Owen on the mortification of sin, on Communion with God, on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded, but you ridicule these caliber of gifted teachers. I have no trouble comparing what i believe and seeing what Gifted brothers have seen in the same scriptures.


THERE is nothing but scripture that supports my belief this explains to the world that you do not grasp the doctrines of grace, you never did, despite your claim. You try and make that claim, you might believe what you post, but No one that I see believes it.




lol that is your M>O> but now you try and project it on All the Cals here...epic fail, because people read the posts.



]No.. I said partial scripture cobbled together badly.
When asked to explain, you repeat the partial phrase over and over, JonC what does it mean He bore our sins? you repeat 10x...he bore our sins, he bores our sins, he bore our sins, you never answer


yes, everyday, but I also understand what it means unlike you.

From what I have come across on BB and other sites it would seem that calvinists just have not worked through to the end the logical problems their theology presents. Those of us that have looked at their theology and found it wanting are not saying that calvinist are just barely saved as some calvinists have said of non-calvinists. What we are saying is that even in your Christian walk you need to grow more. Trust what the scriptures say and trust less in what some uninspired man has to say, no matter how learned they may be,

 

[JonC]

We have decided, Jon. You are wrong and Iconoclast is right.
You simply miss the whole picture and try to replace the whole with pieces that are disjointed.

Except it was not you I was referring to as having to decide.

Everyone here, but you and a few others, can see that what you believe is not in God's Word.

You have indoctrinated yourself in Reformed theology, in Reformed writers, and in vain philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

The interesting thing about this thread is that not one person complaining about Calvinism has ever laid out the inconsistencies in scripture that a Calvinist holds. Scripture is always left out and is replaced by ignorance of opinion by the non-calvinist.

We have pointed out many inconsistencies in your understanding of scripture, but you just ignore them.