Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well since I have posted about John 6:44 it is now your turn. What do you think it tells us?
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Well since I have posted about John 6:44 it is now your turn. What do you think it tells us?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I didn't say post about it, I said exegete it.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Stop right there that is not what the word means. Try again.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why do you not like what I wrote? Does it not fit with your calvinism, well actually it does not does it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Really what does the word mean?
I have other thinks to do right now so will check back to see your answer.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
15.212 σύρωa; ἕλκωa; σπάομαι: to pull or drag, requiring force because of the inertia of the object being dragged—‘to pull, to drag, to draw.’
σύρωa: λιθάσαντες τὸν Παῦλον ἔσυρον ἔξω τῆς πόλεως ‘they stoned Paul and dragged him out of town’ Ac 14:19; ἡ οὐρὰ αὐτοῦ σύρει τὸ τρίτον τῶν ἀστέρων τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ‘with his tail he dragged a third of the stars out of the sky’ Re 12:4; σύροντες τὸ δίκτυον τῶν ἰχθύων ‘they pulled the net full of fish’ Jn 21:8.
ἕλκωa: οὐκέτι αὐτὸ ἑλκύσαι ἴσχυον ‘they could not pull the net back in’ Jn 21:6; Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος ἔχων μάχαιραν εἵλκυσεν αὐτήν ‘Simon Peter had a sword and drew it’ Jn 18:10.
σπάομαι: εἷς δέ τις τῶν παρεστηκότων σπασάμενος τὴν μάχαιραν ‘one of those standing by drew a sword’ Mk 14:47.
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 207.
to attract powerfully ⇔ haul v. — to attract powerfully, conceived of as drawing a heavy object out of something with great effort.
John 6 not only says, "Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day," it also says the following in the same context; "Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
This raises a couple of questions in my mind. 1) Why don't Calvinists insist that verse 40 applies to them like they insist verse 44 applies to them? #2, Are Calvinists teaching that they have been irresistibly drawn and they have seen the son?
Are the same hermenuetical principles applied by the Calvinists for both verses?
Here is another question taken from common sense and logic. If one sees the son doing the miracles and minutely fulfilling prophecies from the OT concerning the Messiah would it then make a tremendous amount of sense for John to say these words in the context?
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
They have not seen the Father but they have seen the son and the Father had previously told about what he would say and do when he came. He had said that during the previous 2000 years of the history of Abraham and his family.
You Calvinists on this board needs to stop and think and stop reading those men from the past who do not have a clue what they are talking about.
This raises a couple of questions in my mind. 1) Why don't Calvinists insist that verse 40 applies to them like they insist verse 44 applies to them? #2, Are Calvinists teaching that they have been irresistibly drawn and they have seen the son?
Are the same hermenuetical principles applied by the Calvinists for both verses?
Here is another question taken from common sense and logic. If one sees the son doing the miracles and minutely fulfilling prophecies from the OT concerning the Messiah would it then make a tremendous amount of sense for John to say these words in the context?
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
They have not seen the Father but they have seen the son and the Father had previously told about what he would say and do when he came. He had said that during the previous 2000 years of the history of Abraham and his family.
You Calvinists on this board needs to stop and think and stop reading those men from the past who do not have a clue what they are talking about.
Life is in the body of the person who has possession of it. John 6 is not emphasizing the drawing of the Father, it is emphasizing the person of Jesus Christ as being the Bread of Life that is sent by the Father. He that comes to the Father for the Bread will have eternal life when he eats his body and drinks his blood. This chapter is full of metaphors and the spiritual man will see them. One must get the Bread from the Father. It is his Bread.
The Bread was life giving even if it was not eaten, but for Bread to give individuals life, it must be ingested.The metaphor for believing is eating. One must eat the bread.
The words he spoke are Spirit, Jesus said. The Spirit is life - Rom 8:9. The indwelling Spirit of Christ is life but he must be received into the body. This is the message of John 6 before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.
Jn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
Calvinists have salvation from sin wrong. They must get it right in order to have hope.
The Bread was life giving even if it was not eaten, but for Bread to give individuals life, it must be ingested.The metaphor for believing is eating. One must eat the bread.
The words he spoke are Spirit, Jesus said. The Spirit is life - Rom 8:9. The indwelling Spirit of Christ is life but he must be received into the body. This is the message of John 6 before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.
Jn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
Calvinists have salvation from sin wrong. They must get it right in order to have hope.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You do understand what context means I hope? But I have to ask, from what you have posted are you agreeing or disagreeing with with what I posted?
You quoted other material but you did not say what you thought. You say G1670 does not mean draw in that verse so if it does not in that verse but rather means drag as you seem to indicate then it would have to mean drag in Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." so now your making yourself a universalist.
But what I did notice was that even what you had posted shows that in Joh 6:44 the Greek word is translated DRAW. So it seems you do agree with what I had posted.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 Why do you think post # 167 is funny? Do not understand what was written. Do you really think the bible text and what it says to us is funny.
Do you realize you just taught the gospel of salvation by works?
God says we are dead in our sins.
Even while dead, God makes alive.
By grace we were saved.
The gift of faith is then given.
We then do the works God ordained for us to do.
~ Ephesians 2:1-10
Indeed, you and I teach a different gospel. Yours is by human effort. Mine is by God's effort alone through grace alone.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your right you do teach a different gospel, the type Paul warned about. Gal 1:6-8.
You want people saved before they even trust in Christ Jesus, that is not biblical and you should know that. Perhaps you do know it but choose to ignore that fact as it does not fit with your theology.
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Notice a common thread, we are saved by God because we believe not so that we will believe as you and others have said.
Just so we're clear. You are accusing me of teaching salvation by works, just as the Judaizers. Correct?
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
~ Galatians 1:6-8
This accusation is curious since you have openly proclaimed that humans don't need to hear the gospel to be saved, that they can be saved by observing nature alone. You assert this in defiance of Romans 1, yet now you accuse me of not teaching the gospel of grace alone.
Silverhair, in this accusation you play the role of an evil person.
Here, I stand on God's precious word.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This passage is clear on its own, but just to remind you that Jesus authors our faith, I share Hebrews 12:2 as well.
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Do you acknowledge that you didn't even quote a full sentence? Let's look at the whole sentence.
Romans 3:21-25
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
It's a gift, Silverhair.
Yep, no works required.
Remember the above passage,
"justified by his grace as a gift"?
Wonderful passage. Note that our justification is by grace as a gift...which means faith is a gift of God, coming after salvation.
Silverhair, do you not believe someone must be saved before they can be justified? Or do you think an unsaved person can have their own faith and thus justify themselves without ever being saved?
Does salvation come before justification?
Does the Spirit of God come on a person before salvation or after salvation?
Do you acknowledge that Paul is writing to people who are already saved?
Again, can a person have faith and be justified without first being saved by grace?
I notice that what you just said is the gospel of works. That is a common thread I see in your posts.
The gospel is this:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
~ Ephesians 2:4-7
Notice the difference.
You preach that you are saved because you chose to believe, which caused God to save you. ("we are saved by God because we believe")
I preach that God chose to save us by grace alone, which caused us to have faith and believe.
Did Paul lie when he wrote to the Ephesians and told them the order salutis?
Silverhair, thank you for your post. Any true believer in Christ can see how you have mislead in your quoting of scripture.
You did not answer a single wonderful point/question that I presented from John 6. The manna similitude from the OT, when the children of Israel were sustained in the wilderness with the manna from heaven. It was required they gather the bread from the ground and eat it. Jesus, in the beginning of the chapter, demonstrates that he has the power to feed the people by feeding 5000 men with 5 loaves and two fishes. The next day he declared that he is the manna that God sent down from heaven. Look.
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life UNTO THE WORLD.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
The next thing I am quoting from John 6 will show WHY these Jews must be taught from the OT prophecies concern Jesus. THEY MUST UNDERSTAND THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS, and they did not. Look what they said.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here is how they are drawn
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
You say eating the bread is a work and I say you are perverting the very words I have posted from John 6. You are attempting to teach your Calvinism. It will not work.
The good news. It is not too late to repent and believe what is written.
the Reformed totally misdefines the doctrine of death in the scriptures. Here is all that death means. Separation/departure. I could prove that by many scriptures but I will refer to the prodigal in Luke 15.
Here is what the prodigal did; He departed and was separated from his Father.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Then later he returned and is reunited in the presence and favor of the father.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:
Now, if you do not get anything else, get this what the father said next;
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
He was dead when he departed and out of favor with the father.
He was alive when reconciled to the father through repentance and in his favor and presence.
How simple is that?
Manna, given by God to sustain his chosen people, foreshadows Jesus who is the bread of life.
Jesus fed the 5000 by breaking the bread and giving it to the people. The people mistook this to think Jesus would physically feed them, and Jesus had to correct them.
Jesus as the High Priest (he was ordained as High Priest at his baptism) also established the new covenant by being the bread of the show table and drink offering. He did this at the last supper, which fulfilled the foreshadowing of the meal the elders if Israel, Aaron and his sons, Joshua and Moses had with God on Mt Sinai.
Note that in these cases, God chose to give bread to those whom he chose. The people didn't choose Jesus.
So, in John 6:35-37 we see that God the Father has chosen who gets the bread.
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Another Strawman, you really don't know how to be honest do you? I DID NOT say that draw was not a proper translation. I said you assertion of what that means is wrong, dead wrong.You do understand what context means I hope? But I have to ask, from what you have posted are you agreeing or disagreeing with with what I posted?
You quoted other material but you did not say what you thought. You say G1670 does not mean draw in that verse so if it does not in that verse but rather means drag as you seem to indicate then it would have to mean drag in Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." so now your making yourself a universalist.
But what I did notice was that even what you had posted shows that in Joh 6:44 the Greek word is translated DRAW. So it seems you do agree with what I had posted.
So John 18:10, Peter drew his sword. Do you think that was just an attraction? No, he drew it with force. I showed you the ways in which it is used in Johannine literature and one use in acts. It is always with force, not attraction.
What is interesting is you really don't get out of your preconceived idea at all with the word draw. If I draw water from a well, is that an attraction? No, I'm dragging that bucket up with force.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I most certainly do as I have demonstrated repeatedly. However, you demonstrate you don't care about context.
To even suggest that Jesus set up the mountain feeding of the five thousand so he could demonstrate their ignorance should be scary to the one promoting this nonsense. Jesus did feed them but the thing to see here is he fed them with 5 loaves and two fishes and when finished had more than twice as much as when he began.. The mentions you present outside of this manna teaching in Jn 6 is a red wheel. Men must eat the bread in the desert to have physical life and they must eat the bread in John 6 to have everlasting life. The physical foreshadows the spiritual. This is the way of God.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Eating this bread is a one time thing.
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