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Is God not sovereign in a Christan's life after we are saved?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You leave out two critical words as far as election goes
Eph_1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
And that makes these words more understandable
Eph_1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Notice we are chosen IN HIM. Those that believe/trust in Christ Jesus are those that are IN HIM {Christ Jesus} and because we are IN HIM we are adopted as sons.
The bible is clear in how or why we are IN HIM. When we hear the gospel and believe the message then if we confess Him because we believe we will be saved by the grace of God because of that belief.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Curious. Are you now changing your previous statement that “many are saved having never heard the gospel”?
You appear to be saying now the gospel is necessary for salvation.
Which is it?
peace to you
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You have once again failed to realize that God does not have to be fair, but He does have to be just. Your the one that keeps saying that God has to be fair, not me. I find it is always the calvinists that keep talking about the fairness of God, you seem to be fixated on it.
Actually I use that quote as it is biblical but I also believe God is sovereign so when He says that people can know Him through His creation then I actually take Him at His word.
Do you not believe that He is sovereign enough that He can save those that call out to Him even if they have not heard the gospel message? Why? Can He only operate within the parameters that calvinists set for Him. Spend some time on the NET and you will find that a number of people have come to Him in closed countries prior to knowing the gospel message.
Calvinists as a group keep saying that God is sovereign but you do not seem to want to let Him actually be sovereign.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
NO see post # 84. For those that have the opportunity to hear the gospel message then their positive response is necessary for salvation. But, and this is where you miss the mark, God is sovereign and if He wants to draw people to Himself by whatever means He chooses then why do you deny Him that right. Don't you believe that God is sovereign?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Have you bothered to read the WCF/LBCF or even thought through the TULIP to it's logical end.
I agree God is not the author of sin but it is just that your theology requires that He is.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, are you claiming that your statement “many are saved having never heard the gospel” is biblical? That is simply false, utterly false.
I believe what God’s word says. Per Romans 1, not a single person calls out to God due to creation. All have gone astray. None seek God.
Second, per 1 Corinthians, the world through its own wisdom did not come to know God, but God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (i. e., Jesus Christ and Him crucified… also know as the gospel) to save those who believe.
So, not only is your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” completely unbiblical, it is specifically refuted by God’s Word.
The rest of what you said is straw man gaslighting nonsense, not worth the cyberspace to correct.
peace to you
Sorry but Calvinism proclaims God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. This is presented in a well published confession. For you to claim otherwise is to run away from the actual doctrine of Calvinism.
I did not say God is the author of sin, but that would be the result of God ordaining sin. Again, for you to deny the obvious is disheartening. Unless we stick to the truth, no communication is possible and the devil wins.
Finally did I say you or anyone opposes a "free will salvation?" Nope I said fallen humanity has a limited autonomous will. See post #74.
If you want to dispute what Calvinism proclaims, provide a link that says Calvinism does not proclaim God ordains whatsoever comes to pass...
God Ordains Whatsoever Comes to Pass
P.S. God's sovereignty does not require that God predestines everything, only that He either causes or allows everything.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You actually amaze me at times, actually most calvinists do that. Your the ones that trumpet that God is sovereign then turn around and say well only so much. He is not allowed to do anything that does not fit with my theology. So much for your sovereign god.
The real sovereign God that I worship can and does do as He pleases. He does not need my permission to save those that call out to Him, which your theology claims for itself.
So according to your theology, no one that we know of in the OT was saved because they never had that real gospel message given to them. Perhaps you should read Heb 11 without the blinders. I am sure that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and lets not forget David, Isaiah, Ezekiel or any of the other prophets.
Heb 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
The fact you will not even take the time to check the stories of those from closed countries for yourself just shows how closed minded you are. For you it seems to be calvinism or nothing. The bible has to fit into your theology. Sad really really sad.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You are too tedious to endure. I’m done for now.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your refusal to even check anything out say volumes. You claim something and just expect others to follow along. I give your scripture and you claim that it is too tedious to endure. Why don't you just admit that God is sovereign and He can do as He pleases which includes saving those that call out to Him prior to hearing the gospel message. Is that to hard for you to admit?
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When God chose the Second Person of the Trinity to be His "lamb of God" He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. Thus before the foundation of the world (before any individual human was created) God chose "us in Him. This phrase is misunderstood by Calvinism. The actual idea is when God chose His Redeemer God chose to redeem corporately everyone Christ has and will redeem.
Why corporately and not individually? Because we (everyone saved) lived not as a people (chosen by God for His own possession). If we had been chosen individually before creation, then we were always (from conception) a chosen people. Similarly, if we had been chosen for salvation before creation, then we had obtained mercy, and therefore could not have existed when we had not obtained mercy. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes the Calvinist bogus interpretation of Ephesians 1:4 as referring to our individual election. It is a lock...
God is sovereign.
God does as he wills.
God tells us that “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
Do you think the Sovereign God is lying?
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Silverhair, you keep making up scenarios that the Bible does not share. Why do you do this? Is it because you have to make things up in order for your theology to work for you?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do not have to make up things, I just trust in a Sovereign God that can and does do as He pleases. You do have areal problem with that but I do keep hoping that God will open your eyes to the truth of scripture.
You trust in your personal assertions that have nothing to do with God's sovereignty. You disingenuously tell us that God can break his own word and do whatever...because he is sovereign. In your position you are promoting God as a liar. This lying you then declare to be God's sovereignty.
Silverhair, you spend much of your posts trying to twist and distort the image of God so that God fits into your image. Your actions are shameful.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Since you do not think God is sovereign then I can understand why you think He can only do what you allow Him to do. Do you not see the problem in your logic. I say God is sovereign and He can do as He pleases, and you say I am wrong. You say God is sovereign but He can not do as He pleases, and you claim to be right.
Look at your own words "You disingenuously tell us that God can break his own word and do whatever...because he is sovereign." You limit Gods' sovereignty and you are so blinded you do not even realize it.
Why will you not let God be God and stop trying to fill that position.
LOL, God is fully Sovereign.
God does not lie nor speak falsely or go back on His word. Therefore, in his sovereignty, he holds himself to his own covenant. (In other words, he is not disingenuous like you.)
Therefore, when God tells you the means by which people are saved, he does not change his mind just because he could do it some other way.
Silverhair, you are promoting an idea that God lies and does something contrary to what He says, purely because you think lying makes God fully Sovereign and God not lying, somehow diminishes His full sovereignty.
I cannot begin to express how horrific you are in what you are doing. Moreso, you have openly been dishonest in telling me that I do not think God is fully Sovereign if I don't join you in your horrific beliefs.
My honest reaction is to respond with "Get thee behind me, Satan."
But, instead, I will recognize that your belief is contrary to God's word and to be thrown in the dung heap of false teaching.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
What I really suspect and what really is, may be two different matters entirely, George.
As a mere man who judges things on the outward appearance and who cannot look upon the heart, anything that I observe is not going to be perfect.
My wish for you, as always,
is that He bless you greatly with all that He has for His children.
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