You shall surely die

[JonC]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

I would argue the curse is twofold.

The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin

17 Then to Adam He said, “....
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it

And because of Adam's sin physical death entered the World.

"Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

In addition to the curse because of Adam's sin there was a separation.

The reason is not because Adam sinned but so that, having his "eyes opened" and "becoming like [God] knowing good and evil", he would not partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.


21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[Reynolds]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

I would argue the curse is twofold.

The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin

17 Then to Adam He said, “....
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it

And because of Adam's sin physical death entered the World.

"Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

In addition to the curse because of Adam's sin there was a separation.

The reason is not because Adam sinned but so that, having his "eyes opened" and "becoming like [God] knowing good and evil", he would not partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.


21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Gen 2:17 says "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."
Physical death did not happen on the day he ate.
Guess we could argue that it began.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One thing I use in my dealing with this is Adam after he sinned

1 he tried to blame eve
2 he tried to hide from God (did he forget who God was?)
3 his nakedness was now Shame

his sin nature immediately showed up as his focus was on self continually. The things of God became foolish to him

the separation was seen immediately.

We also have the consequence of sin. which included all the things mentioned in the ip including eventual physical death.

we also see gods response

Adam did not go to God God went to him
Adam although trying to hide did not run away and fight in unbelief.
God killed an innocent and covered Adam with his animals flesh
The relationship. Although still weakened. Was restored. Not because Adam series God but because God drew Adam and Adam in faith responded

 

[JonC]

Gen 2:17 says "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."
Physical death did not happen on the day he ate.
Guess we could argue that it began.

Actually, the verse uses "die" as a definite (like "amen, amen". Physical death did enter the world on the day Adam sinned (on that day death became certain, or a reality, for man).

"On that day you will surely die" does not mean "you shall surely die on that day" (although this is how, given the English translation, we often take it).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let’s try this

the penalty of sin is death. The gift of Gid is eternally life

everyone will die physically. If physical death was the penalty then everyone would pay for their own sin

also. Jesus died physically true. But he said the payment was “paid in full” before he died. Jesus suffered spiritual death on the cross

just as Adam dies spiritually the moment he sinner and in Adam all die and all must be made alive.

 

[JonC]

One thing I use in my dealing with this is Adam after he sinned

1 he tried to blame eve
2 he tried to hide from God (did he forget who God was?)
3 his nakedness was now Shame

his sin nature immediately showed up as his focus was on self continually. The things of God became foolish to him

the separation was seen immediately.

We also have the consequence of sin. which included all the things mentioned in the ip including eventual physical death.

we also see gods response

Adam did not go to God God went to him
Adam although trying to hide did not run away and fight in unbelief.
God killed an innocent and covered Adam with his animals flesh
The relationship. Although still weakened. Was restored. Not because Adam series God but because God drew Adam and Adam in faith responded

I'm not sure.

I agree with you about Adam experiencing a separation from God, but I do not believe it occurred at the moment of his sin (I do not believe this was the "death" spoken of in God's warning).

Instead I believe the death spoken of is in the curse God proclaimed upon Adam because he sinned (he would return to dust).

This does not negate the fact that natural man is separated from God. But it places the reason on God's purposes in redemptive history rather than as the wages of sin.

Genesis 3:9–12 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

His "eyes were opened". He hid from God because “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

There are a few interesting things about the situation.

Adam's nakedness did not change. He was naked before he ate of the fruit. But after his "eyes were opened" to know good and evil he was afraid because he was naked.

I do not think this was unbelief, but rather a knowledge that his state was not worthy to be in God's presence. Created in God's image he was still less than God (although he desired to be like God).

I believe it was ultimately for this purpose that God took Adam from the place where he was created and placed him in the Garden.

 

[JesusFan]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

I would argue the curse is twofold.

The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin

17 Then to Adam He said, “....
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it

And because of Adam's sin physical death entered the World.

"Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

In addition to the curse because of Adam's sin there was a separation.

The reason is not because Adam sinned but so that, having his "eyes opened" and "becoming like [God] knowing good and evil", he would not partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.


21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Adam experienced spiritual death, as that happened right when he sinned against the lord, as he now needed a Savior!

 

[JesusFan]

Gen 2:17 says "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."
Physical death did not happen on the day he ate.
Guess we could argue that it began.

Adam had to have a Savior right after he spiritually died in that garden!

 

[JonC]

Adam experienced spiritual death, as that happened right when he sinned against the lord, as he now needed a Savior!

We all experienced spiritual death. It is not until we are made alive in Christ - born of the Spirit - that we experience spiritual life.

That said, Scripture has a different time frame.

Adam sinned.
His eyes were opened to knowing good and evil.
God pronounced a curse - the land will be cursed and Adam will return to the ground from which he was formed.
God clothed Adam.
God separated Adam from Himself.

We agree about this separation, but how can you say it occurred the instant Adam sinned when Scripture says it did not?

 

[JesusFan]

We all experienced spiritual death. It is not until we are made alive in Christ - born of the Spirit - that we experience spiritual life.

That said, Scripture has a different time frame.

Adam sinned.
His eyes were opened to knowing good and evil.
God pronounced a curse - the land will be cursed and Adam will return to the ground from which he was formed.
God clothed Adam.
God separated Adam from Himself.

We agree about this separation, but how can you say it occurred the instant Adam sinned when Scripture says it did not?

Adam the very moment became aware of himself as apart from God had tasted spiritual death

 

[JonC]

Adam the very moment became aware of himself as apart from God had tasted spiritual death

That is not what the Bible says. Where did you find that statement (provide a source so we can discuss it and compare it to Scripture)?

 

[JonC]

Let’s try this

the penalty of sin is death. The gift of Gid is eternally life

everyone will die physically. If physical death was the penalty then everyone would pay for their own sin

also. Jesus died physically true. But he said the payment was “paid in full” before he died. Jesus suffered spiritual death on the cross

just as Adam dies spiritually the moment he sinner and in Adam all die and all must be made alive.

Very good points.

My answer would be that the wages of sin is death (physical death) and that we do pay these wages.

What we escape is not the wages of sin but God's wrath against the wicked when they are judged (at Judgement).

Even when sins are forgiven consequences remain. What is removed is not the outcome of our sin but the judgment against us.

We see this throughout Scripture. Moses could not enter the Promised Land. David's child died. Israel went into captivity.

But God bring eternal and unchanging did not, IMHO, take away the wages of sin. Instead He took the "sting" from death by saving us not from death but through death. We must die with Christ, die to the flesh, because all flesh will perish.

This is not to say that I disagree with you about separation. I just see this separation as not being, specifically, the wages of sin.

 

[Reynolds]

On another thread @Eternally Grateful brought up (as a side comment) the wages of sin and (I take it) Adam's sin and the direct consequences.

I think this could be a good discussion. I do not hold that this death (in Genesis) is a spiritual death but a physical one. That said, there was also a spiritual death in that Adam was separated from God.

Genesis 3:17–24 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken; for you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

What is the curse Adam was under due to his sin?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face
Y

Actually, the verse uses "die" as a definite (like "amen, amen". Physical death did enter the world on the day Adam sinned (on that day death became certain, or a reality, for man).

"On that day you will surely die" does not mean "you shall surely die on that day" (although this is how, given the English translation, we often take it).

MacArthur says:
2:17 certainly die. To “die” has the basic idea of separation. It can mean spiritual separation, physical separation, and/or eternal separation. At the moment of their sin, Adam and Eve died spiritually, but because God was merciful they did not die physically until later (5:5). There is no reason given for this prohibition, other than it was a test (see note on v. 9). There was nothing magical about that tree, but eating from it after it had been forbidden by God would indeed give man the knowledge of evil—since evil can be defined as disobeying God. Man already had the knowledge of good."


I guess he half agrees with you and half agrees with me.

 

[kyredneck]

You shall surely die

The 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' being a 'figure' of the law, I take 'die' here in the sense that Paul meant:

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

 

[JonC]

MacArthur says:
2:17 certainly die. To “die” has the basic idea of separation. It can mean spiritual separation, physical separation, and/or eternal separation. At the moment of their sin, Adam and Eve died spiritually, but because God was merciful they did not die physically until later (5:5). There is no reason given for this prohibition, other than it was a test (see note on v. 9). There was nothing magical about that tree, but eating from it after it had been forbidden by God would indeed give man the knowledge of evil—since evil can be defined as disobeying God. Man already had the knowledge of good."


I guess he half agrees with you and half agrees with me.

I always half way agree with JohnnyMac

 

[JonC]

The 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' being a 'figure' of the law, I take 'die' here in the sense that Paul meant:

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

I never thought of it that way. That is what I believe his "eyes were opened" means.

 

[JesusFan]

That is not what the Bible says. Where did you find that statement (provide a source so we can discuss it and compare it to Scripture)?

Did any aspect o Adam get corrupted and fallen then from the fall? Do we all have the same skn nature as he then had, did Jesus have our same nature then at birth?

 

[JesusFan]

I never thought of it that way. That is what I believe his "eyes were opened" means.

adam became a sinner as his state changed, as he went from fully God focused to now being fixed upon himself!

 

[JesusFan]

I always half way agree with JohnnyMac

He is dead on concerning spirituals death and Adam, as we are all spiritually dead as being found in Adam, and come spiritual alive again in Christ!

 

[JonC]

Did any aspect o Adam get corrupted and fallen then from the fall? Do we all have the same skn nature as he then had, did Jesus have our same nature then at birth?

I am not sure "corrupted" is the correct word (since it is not the word used in God's Word).

But yes, there were changes Adam experienced.

Adam's eyes were opened and he became as God knowing good and evil. Also, to prevent Adam from eating of the Tree of Life he was separated from God by being cast out of the Garden.

How does the version of Scripture you are using word those passages?