Temporal Justification

[Darrell C]

Opening Post Part One

I am posting this here because I want anyone to be able to join in on the conversation regardless of denomination.

Most are aware of the division between Catholics and Protestants (as well as Evangelicals) and the many various divisions in the latter two. The latter view the former to have fallen into error and departed from a Biblical basis for numerous Doctrine and practices. So much so, in fact that a "Reformation" became necessary to restore the Body to sound Doctrine and Practice. But what if...

...that has happened again?

What if the Reformation took that error and while cleaning it up a bit remained with an erroneous position that impacts some of the most basic truths Scripture provides for us?

Before taking up the shield of your Theological System, let me just ask a few questions. We will begin with the notorious Faith Alone versus Faith and Works. James makes it very clear that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also:


James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


The standard answer of those who hold to faith alone is that this is a temporal context, and that this has a "horizontal application," meaning that it refers to the relationship between men, as opposed to man's relationship to God. I agree...this speaks of Temporal Justification. If we concluded that James is referring to Justification that has an eternal value we must equally conclude that men can be justified by giving food to the hungry and clothing to the cold.

Now, before the Catholic decides to stop reading, be patient, you'll want to know why the Protestant is in error concerning Justification as well.

The Protestant nullifies the Catholic view that men can be saved by faith and works, hence the temporal context. The problem, Catholic friend, is that James is not speaking about how one is saved, he is speaking about how one is justified in a temporal context, and it is very true that men can be justified by faith and works in a temporal context. So how is the Protestant in error concerning Justification? Quite simple, he does the exact same thing Catholics do, that is, impose an eternal and salvific context into Romans 4:


Romans 4:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Again...a temporal context. How do we know that? We simply look at how Abraham was justified. It was because of what he did...

...not what Jesus Christ did.

He believed God, and this is not about Christ dying in his stead. He believed God's promise/s but one simple truth to keep in mind is this: he died...not receiving the promises that pertain to Eternal Salvation (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). And I will again remind the reader that the above, and all of the examples given in Romans 4 concerning Justification are speaking about...Justification. Not Eternal Redemption. Just as the Catholic imposes an eternal context into James 2, even so, those who read Romans 4 and equate Abraham's justification to Eternal REdemption do so at the expense of...Romans 3:


Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


This is speaking in an eternal context. Abraham was declared righteous in a temporal perspective based on what he believed and did, but that did not change the fact that he died not receiving the promises and...not being made perfect (teleioō, complete in regards to remission of sins (see Hebrews 10:1-4 and Hebrews 10:14-18)). This does not say "There is none righteous, except Abraham," it states clearly that there isn't a single person that is righteous when viewed from the Eternal Perspective of God. Paul will go on to show how men are Justified in an eternal context, but first, let's take a look at Temporal Justification as opposed to Eternal Justification:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


But wait a minute, is that a contradiction I see in Scripture, because we see people justified by the works of the Law? Here are a few examples:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Many commentators deny that men can be justified by the works of the Law by saying something to the effect that Paul makes the point "No one can perform the works of the Law," hence the conclusion is that none can be justified by the works of the Law. But that is precisely what Paul states here. That argument fails not only because we see men justified by doing the will of God (which is what the Law itself can be defined as, though it must be kept in the context in which is it given), that is what the verse above states. The Gentiles had the revelation of the works of the Law (God's will for their lives, which can only be revealed by God HImself) and the contrast is given between those who performed the works of the Law and those who did not (implied in v.13). And if we keep reading...


Romans 2:23-27 King James Version (KJV)

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?


There is simply no way to dismiss vv.13-15 as hypothetical. It is evident in both the Old Testament as well as clarified in the New that whether one kept the Law or not...mattered. Again, we do not view the keeping of the Covenant of Law as a means of salvation, or Eternal Redemption. God's will for Man, whether prior to the formalized Covenant of Law or after, was for Man's benefit in the context of physical existence. Temporal Justification can be viewed as relevant to the salvation of the Old Testament Saints in that Justification secured their eternal destinies during their lifetime, but every Old Testament Saint died awaiting Eternal Redemption through Christ, which was attained by them postmortem. Eternal Redemption is only possible when it is Christ's righteousness imputed to the behalf of the individual. That is an irrefutable Biblical Doctrine. It might be likened to having an airplane ticket. One can have the ticket but until they board the plane they're still in the terminal (no pun intended).


And if you look at the establishment of the Law you are going to see that God demanded they keep the Law when He established it, judged them when they didn't, and justified them when they did. Let's look at two such individuals:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Now, before anyone gets too excited and mistakenly thinks I am teaching salvation by works, let me just remind you the context is speaking of justification...and this in a temporal context (and thus, no...Scripture is not contradicting itself!). They were not saved because they walked in all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless...they were justified. Just as Abraham was justified by his belief, faith, and works (notably his willingness to offer up Isaac at the command of the Lord).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Opening Post Part Two


We see another man justified in a temporal context here:


Luke 18:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


This fellow was justified because, as opposed to the haughty pride of the Pharisee "praying" to God, he bowed himself in repentance of his sin.

One more passage in regards to being justified by works and works of the Law:


Leviticus 18:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.


Again, keep in mind that this is not salvific: the life promised them for keeping the Law is not Eternal Life (which can only be received as a gift, given freely by God through His grace), it is physical life. What happened to men that broke the Law? They were put to death physically. Think of those that sought to kill Christ and why they did so: because they viewed Him as breaking the Law, hence they sought to exact the penalty, which itself again refers us to the temporal context. Now let's return to Romans 3 and finally see an eternal context concerning Justification that is salvific:


Romans 3 King James Version

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


"But now..." Paul is declaring that now, as oppposed to the justification which was temporal seen in Romans 2, the righteousness which is eternal because it belongs to Jesus Christ is made manifest. If we don't nullify the basic truth that men could be justified by the works of the Law during the Age of Law (as well as before God's will was formalized in the Covenant of Law) then we have no conflict. Note that this righteousness is by faith in Jesus Christ. Something not understood by many-and this because of the traditional errors of imputing the Atonement prior to the Cross-is that faith in Christ was not available to men during the Law, or prior to the establishment of the (Covenant of) Law.


"But now..." Paul is declaring that now, as oppposed to the justification which was temporal seen in Romans 2, the righteousness which is eternal because it belongs to Jesus Christ is made manifest. If we don't nullify the basic truth that men could be justified by the works of the Law during the Age of Law (as well as before God's will was formalized in the COvenant of Law) then we have no conflict. Note that this righteousness is by faith in Jesus Christ. Something not understood by many-and this because of the traditional errors of imputing the Atonement prior to the Cross-is that faith in Christ was not available to men during the Law, or prior to the establishment of the (Covenant of) Law:


Galatians 3:21-27 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which shouldafterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Paul teaches a "before and after" concerning faith in Christ. It's no mystery why faith in Christ wasn't available...the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16; Colossians 1:25-27). Something else that may not be given proper consideration is that men were not baptized into Christ prior to His return to Heaven and the sending of the Comforter. That basic truth is seen in vv.26-27 above, as well as John 1:11-13 (where we see being born of God is tied to the Incarnation), and is mentioned here:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Opening Post Part Three


So let's get back to Romans 3:


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


A reiteration that "there is none righteous, no...not one." Despite the fact that men like Abraham were justified in a temporal context, they died still awaiting the Promises of God in regards to Eternal Redemption. Our next verse is both in an eternal context as well as salvific, unlike Romans 4 and James 2:


24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


I would urge you to go back up and look at v.21 again "...But now..." There is a contrast between the economy of the Law and the economy of the New Covenant established by Christ.

In regards to Man's role in Eternal Redemption, one could argue "But we believed, thus we participated!" They would lose that argument, because the grace of God comes before you and I "agree," or "choose." Just because we have a response to that grace by which God enlightened our natural minds to the truth of the Gospel doesn't detract from the fact that had not God come to us...we would have never been saved. This is particularly true concerning the Ministry of the Comforter Post-Pentecost. He, God, comes to us and brings conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment...while we are yet sinners (John 16:7-9). Being Justified in an eternal context is by the grace of God...alone. It is freely given.

And it is based on the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Not something we do, but something that Christ did.

And as a final word, I would like to address the popular teaching that the Atonement was applied prior to the Cross to the Old Testament Saints as we finish up this passage in Romans 3:


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham's righteousness was not declared to atone for his own sins. Abraham's righteousness did not nullify the need for the Lord to manifest in flesh and die in the stead of the sinner. Only the Lord's righteousness can take away the penalty for sin in an eternal context (Hebrews 10:1-4 and Hebrews 10:14-18). This is a promise of God to Man in the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 10:15-18), and the Old Testament Saints died not receiving this promise in their lifetime. We see that, as well as the reiteration of redemption of the sins of the Old Testament Saints here:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Again, before someone gets excited and thinks I am saying the Old Testament Saints were not saved, let me assure you they were. Saved the same way you and I are, by grace. But wait, you say I forgot to say "...by grace through faith?" You're right, I did, because we are saved by grace, and while faith is an element of our salvation it is not the means of our salvation. Faith is a result of the grace of God. Today we have many people under the mistaken impression that we are saved by faith through grace, and that is a grievous error. When we look into Scripture and find a salvfic text we are never going to see faith or works as the means of Eternal Salvation, we are going to see that the only means of salvation is the Death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The salvation of the Old Testament Saints can be viewed in this way: their eternal destinies were secured during their lifetimes, but we don't impose elements of the New Covenant into Eras/Ages/Economies in which they had not yet been received. A few of those elements would, first...Eternal Life. That's right, Eternal Life. No man, not even Adam, had eteranal life prior to the completion of the Work of Christ. Remember, God so loved the world that He gave His Son that whosoever should believe in Him should have...eternal life. That doesn't mean that the Old Testament Saints cannot be viewed as saved. We are saved yet we have not yet been redeemed bodily, or in other words, haven't received our glorified bodies. That doesn't mean we are any less saved than we will be in the Eternal State. So too, the Old Testament Saints-men and women of faith-were saved from an eternal perspective but lacking elements you and I have been lucky enough to receive during our physical lifetimes. We have received the Promised Spirit, for example (Ezekiel 36:27; John 7:38-39; John 14:15-23; Acts 1:4-5), they did not. We have received the Atonement, whereas they received it postmortem at the time of the Cross.

Now, I return to my original question: Most are aware of the division between Catholics and Protestants (as well as Evangelicals) and the many various divisions in the latter two. The latter view the former to have fallen into error and departed from a Biblical basis for numerous Doctrines and practices that have arisen over the centuries. So much so, in fact, that a "Reformation" became necessary to restore the Body to sound Doctrine and Practice. But what if...

...that has happened again?

Have Protestants and Evangelicals gone to such extremes in order to safeguard Sola Fide that they have come to the place we can see Catholicism arriving at centuries ago, which in some areas has grown worse? Has salvation by faith through grace, rather than salvation by the grace of God become a leading doctrinal position? Has the distinction between Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification fallen to the wayside? I believe we can answer yes to all of these questions. Romans 4 stands as an example of precedence as it relates to Romans 3, to show that being justified apart from works has been seen before. But most will impose an eternal context into that passage just as some impose an eternal context into James 2. Neither passage is salvific, they are both dealing with Temporal Justification. And I will close with a salvific passage that deals with...Eternal Salvation:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

We will begin with the notorious Faith Alone versus Faith and Works. James makes it very clear that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also:

Be bery bery careful Darrell, you'll soon be accused of being a RCC operative peddling the Council of Trent if you continue on this tangent of sound reasoning. Many on board here search for any opportunity to cry HERESY!

 

[kyredneck]

Doers/Fulfillers Of The Law | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Darrell C]

Be bery bery careful Darrell, you'll soon be accused of being a RCC operative peddling the Council of Trent if you continue on this tangent of sound reasoning.

I was actually just accused of that in the Calvinist forum, lol.

Catholics are right, Abraham was justified by faith and works.

Where they err is that the context is temporal, not eternal. Furthermore, it is not a salvific passage with an eternal context. When we do see a salvific passage with an eternal context we know precisely how men are saved:


Ephesians 3:8-10 KJV

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Men have always been saved by grace through faith. If I am saved by a lifeguard through the use of a life preserver I do not try to make the life preserver the means of salvation, I make the lifeguard the means. If he had not had the life preserver I am sure he (or she) would have made it work without it, lol.

But that is the point of the thread, to look at what I think is one of the greatest reasons for division among the Body of Christ.

Today, many are teaching (and I think unknowingly) that salvation is by faith through grace. I think the debate concerning Justification plays a big part of that, because many equate justification to Eternal Redemption, and ignore that we must distinguish the context of every passage justification is mentioned.

For example:

Luke 18:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


I don't think anyone would think that this man was eternally redeemed by his actions here. He was justified. Two entirely different issues. He was declared righteous, but when he got home he was still in need of a Savior and reconciliation with God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Doers/Fulfillers Of The Law | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3
How do you harmonize the verses?

@canadyjd:

How do you harmonize the verses?

peace to you

.....................................................

Short answer, this is apples and oranges, not a contradiction. Every heavenly born child of God is by nature a doer of the law:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

...they fulfill the law because God has put the golden rule (Matthew 7:12) in their heart:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

...and I'll leave off there.

I would agree with this.

Now comes a tough question: the Gentiles justified by doing the things of the Law written on their hearts, are they saved because of that?

God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Now comes a tough question: the Gentiles justified by doing the things of the Law written on their hearts, are they saved because of that?

Are you asking: "the Gentiles justified by doing the things of the Law written on their hearts, are they 'going to heaven' because of that?"?

 

[Darrell C]

Are you asking: "the Gentiles justified by doing the things of the Law written on their hearts, are they 'going to heaven' because of that?"?

Basically, yes.

God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Basically, yes.

God bless.

'Saved' [sozo] is not in the context, but eternal consequences definitely is:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Ro 2

Note that God renders to every man 'according to' their works, not 'because of'.

Note that God is judging two hearts in the context:

The unregenerate heart:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Ro 2

The regenerate heart:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

[Darrell C]

'Saved' [sozo] is not in the context, but eternal consequences definitely is:

I agree, being saved is not specifically in the context, however, these Gentiles were justified by doing the works of the Law.

What you so aptly point out is the very point the OP raises: the context is not one of salvation, particularly Eternal Redemption through Christ. So why is it that when people read James 2 and Romans 4 they treat it as though the passage is speaking of salvation?

In Romans 2 we do, as you say, see eternal consequences, which creates the justification (pun intended) of a salvific context. Not one of Eternal Redemption, but one in which we can look at the text and determine that a judgment is coming for these people, and that salvation or damnation are the obvious conclusions based on what they did, or didn't do.

These Gentile kept the work of the Law, and were thus justified (declared righteous), even as Abraham was. In retrospect we can look back and say Abraham was "saved" from the eternal perspective, yet still awaited eternal redemption through Christ. He died not having received the promises. Why wouldn't we also view these Gentiles as saved from an eternal perspective, they also dying awaiting eternal redemption?

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Ro 2

Note that God renders to every man 'according to' their works, not 'because of'.

For some, they will be judged because of their works.

Note that God is judging two hearts in the context:

The unregenerate heart:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Ro 2

The regenerate heart:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

I take the position no man was regenerate in the Old Testament.

Can one be dead and have eternal life? Life at all? No man received the Life Christ came to bestow upon man until Pentecost. It is the eternal indwelling of GOd by which we receive life.

But so we do not derail this thread (the topic is justification), I will start a thread in Other DEnominations, so all can join in.


God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Be bery bery careful Darrell, you'll soon be accused of being a RCC operative peddling the Council of Trent if you continue on this tangent of sound reasoning. Many on board here search for any opportunity to cry HERESY!

paul stated, by inspiration, that NO FLESH shall be justified by the law, correct?

 

[kyredneck]

these Gentiles were justified by doing the works of the Law.

...because of the work of the law written in their hearts. That's WHY we do BY NATURE the things of the law.

I take the position no man was regenerate in the Old Testament.

Why's that? Was there something different or better about the OT Saints that they never required the birth from above?

 

[Darrell C]

...because of the work of the law written in their hearts. That's WHY we do BY NATURE the things of the law.

Again, I believe all men receive of the internal witness of God.

And again, these men were justified by doing the works of the Law. They are declared righteous. They are justified.

How do we reconcile that with ...

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Does this not imply a differing context? Meaning, a temporal context in which men are justified according to their works, and an eternal context in which men are justified freely by God?

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


A reiteration that "there is none righteous, no...not one." Despite the fact that men like Abraham were justified in a temporal context, they died still awaiting the Promises of God in regards to Eternal Redemption. Our next verse is both in an eternal context as well as salvific, unlike Romans 4 and James 2:


24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Do you see a difference between the two?

Why's that? Was there something different or better about the OT Saints that they never required the birth from above?

It's similar to the fact that we have not received our glorified bodies: they had not received Eternal Redemption. They were saved by grace through faith, but at that time in history they still awaited the fulfillment of the promises of God. It is my opinion that they were every bit as "saved" as we are, but had to await receiving Eternal Redemption and reconciliation with God postmortem. Just as we all have to wait for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to receive our glorified bodies.



Because we are not glorified doesn't mean we are "less saved" than we will be when we do.

I started a thread on New Birth, please join me there to discuss Regeneration. I look forward to seeing your Biblical presentation of Regeneration in the Old Testament. You seem to give things thought, and that is always appreciated.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Again, I believe all men receive of the internal witness of God.

And again, these men were justified by doing the works of the Law. They are declared righteous. They are justified.

How do we reconcile that with ...

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Does this not imply a differing context? Meaning, a temporal context in which men are justified according to their works, and an eternal context in which men are justified freely by God?




Do you see a difference between the two?




It's similar to the fact that we have not received our glorified bodies: they had not received Eternal Redemption. They were saved by grace through faith, but at that time in history they still awaited the fulfillment of the promises of God. It is my opinion that they were every bit as "saved" as we are, but had to await receiving Eternal Redemption and reconciliation with God postmortem. Just as we all have to wait for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to receive our glorified bodies.



Because we are not glorified doesn't mean we are "less saved" than we will be when we do.

I started a thread on New Birth, please join me there to discuss Regeneration. I look forward to seeing your Biblical presentation of Regeneration in the Old Testament. You seem to give things thought, and that is always appreciated.

God bless.

ALL ever saved were saved by grace alone thru faith alone, as all even in the Ot times were covered by the Cross of Christ!

 

[Darrell C]

ALL ever saved were saved by grace alone thru faith alone, as all even in the Ot times were covered by the Cross of Christ!

Actually they were not.

This is why they needed to be redeemed:

Galatians 4:4-6 KJV

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


The Cross of Christ brings about remission of sins in completion, whereas the sacrifices of the Law could not. During the Age of Law, as well as all Ages prior to that Age, the sacrifice of animals was the means of remission of sins. It was temporal, and temporary. They had to be continually offered:

Hebrews 10:1-4 KJV

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


While the Law was in effect men were still in need of redemption.


Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Consider:

Hebrews 9:11-12 KJV

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Scripture always makes it clear redemption is through the death of Christ (His blood: blood is a euphemism for death, just as "sleep" is).

Here we see Eternal Redemption was obtained when He died in our stead.


Colossians 1:12-14 KJV

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


His death made atonement for the sins that had been committed by the OT saints:


Romans 3 KJV

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Let's revisit Hebrews 9 and see that same truth:


Hebrews 9 KJV

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Note in v.15 that the transgressions under the First Testament (that would be a reference to the First Covenant, the Covenant of Law) were redeemed by His blood (Death).

Now I ask you, how is it that you can possibly believe...

ALL ever saved were saved by grace alone thru faith alone, as all even in the Ot times were covered by the Cross of Christ!

...?

I agree that the Old Testament Saints were "saved" in the sense that their eternal destinies were as secure as ours. Being justified in the Old Testament secured, in my view, their eternal destinies.

However, we cannot throw out most of the New Testament which teaches that Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ at the Cross, and that it is then that the Old Testament Saints' sins were "covered."

Just give it some thought, JesusFan.


God bless;

 

[NetChaplain]

Before taking up the shield of your Theological System, let me just ask a few questions. We will begin with the notorious Faith Alone versus Faith and Works. James makes it very clear that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also:


James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Just wanted to share with you Brother (if it's ok) that many are unaware of the meaning-usages of "justified" here in James, and in many other same usages. The word "justified" has two meanings: to make one righteous (as only Jesus can do by imputation but not by impartation, for the divine attributes of God are incommunicable); to show one is righteous (as our works do). Thus faith is shown by works, or there is no faith. God imputes righteousness and justification to man, and man manifests (justifies) it by the godly lifestyle (works). Faith effects works so faith is first, then works from faith, as they are separate in their administration, and work in order. Faith first, then works will definitely result, for you won't have faith without works; faith always produces works, or it isn't faith.

 

[Darrell C]

Just wanted to share with you Brother (if it's ok) that many are unaware of the meaning-usages of "justified" here in James, and in many other same usages. The word "justified" has two meanings: to make one righteous (as only Jesus can do by imputation but not by impartation, for the divine attributes of God are incommunicable); to show one is righteous (as our works do). Thus faith is shown by works, or there is no faith. God imputes righteousness and justification to man, and man manifests (justifies) it by the godly lifestyle (works). Faith effects works so faith is first, then works from faith, as they are separate in their administration, and work in order. Faith first, then works will definitely result, for you won't have faith without works; faith always produces works, or it isn't faith.

I hope you might find time to contribute to this thread, brother. It is, in my view, probably the greatest dividing issue in the Body. Even among Evangelicals and Protestants.

What you have expressed is basically the point of the thread, but with more of a focus on justification (being declared righteous) in a temporal context (Luke 18:14; Luke 1:5-6) as opposed to an eternal context (Romans 3:23-26).

Martin Luther was right in his assertions concerning justification, but I think we can broaden our understanding of the Doctrine and in so doing bring a more united Body together. Revelation (the giving of the Word, not the Book) and understanding of revelation has always been progressive, so why wouldn't we think that the Body of Christ should understand the Word of God better today than when it was first received?

Thanks for joining in Brother!

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

I hope you might find time to contribute to this thread, brother. It is, in my view, probably the greatest dividing issue in the Body. Even among Evangelicals and Protestants.

What you have expressed is basically the point of the thread, but with more of a focus on justification (being declared righteous) in a temporal context (Luke 18:14; Luke 1:5-6) as opposed to an eternal context (Romans 3:23-26).

Martin Luther was right in his assertions concerning justification, but I think we can broaden our understanding of the Doctrine and in so doing bring a more united Body together. Revelation (the giving of the Word, not the Book) and understanding of revelation has always been progressive, so why wouldn't we think that the Body of Christ should understand the Word of God better today than when it was first received?

Thanks for joining in Brother!

God bless.

Always been justified and saved by same way throughout history !

 

[JesusFan]

Opening Post Part One

I am posting this here because I want anyone to be able to join in on the conversation regardless of denomination.

Most are aware of the division between Catholics and Protestants (as well as Evangelicals) and the many various divisions in the latter two. The latter view the former to have fallen into error and departed from a Biblical basis for numerous Doctrine and practices. So much so, in fact that a "Reformation" became necessary to restore the Body to sound Doctrine and Practice. But what if...

...that has happened again?

What if the Reformation took that error and while cleaning it up a bit remained with an erroneous position that impacts some of the most basic truths Scripture provides for us?

Before taking up the shield of your Theological System, let me just ask a few questions. We will begin with the notorious Faith Alone versus Faith and Works. James makes it very clear that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also:


James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


The standard answer of those who hold to faith alone is that this is a temporal context, and that this has a "horizontal application," meaning that it refers to the relationship between men, as opposed to man's relationship to God. I agree...this speaks of Temporal Justification. If we concluded that James is referring to Justification that has an eternal value we must equally conclude that men can be justified by giving food to the hungry and clothing to the cold.

Now, before the Catholic decides to stop reading, be patient, you'll want to know why the Protestant is in error concerning Justification as well.

The Protestant nullifies the Catholic view that men can be saved by faith and works, hence the temporal context. The problem, Catholic friend, is that James is not speaking about how one is saved, he is speaking about how one is justified in a temporal context, and it is very true that men can be justified by faith and works in a temporal context. So how is the Protestant in error concerning Justification? Quite simple, he does the exact same thing Catholics do, that is, impose an eternal and salvific context into Romans 4:


Romans 4:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Again...a temporal context. How do we know that? We simply look at how Abraham was justified. It was because of what he did...

...not what Jesus Christ did.

He believed God, and this is not about Christ dying in his stead. He believed God's promise/s but one simple truth to keep in mind is this: he died...not receiving the promises that pertain to Eternal Salvation (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). And I will again remind the reader that the above, and all of the examples given in Romans 4 concerning Justification are speaking about...Justification. Not Eternal Redemption. Just as the Catholic imposes an eternal context into James 2, even so, those who read Romans 4 and equate Abraham's justification to Eternal REdemption do so at the expense of...Romans 3:


Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


This is speaking in an eternal context. Abraham was declared righteous in a temporal perspective based on what he believed and did, but that did not change the fact that he died not receiving the promises and...not being made perfect (teleioō, complete in regards to remission of sins (see Hebrews 10:1-4 and Hebrews 10:14-18)). This does not say "There is none righteous, except Abraham," it states clearly that there isn't a single person that is righteous when viewed from the Eternal Perspective of God. Paul will go on to show how men are Justified in an eternal context, but first, let's take a look at Temporal Justification as opposed to Eternal Justification:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


But wait a minute, is that a contradiction I see in Scripture, because we see people justified by the works of the Law? Here are a few examples:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Many commentators deny that men can be justified by the works of the Law by saying something to the effect that Paul makes the point "No one can perform the works of the Law," hence the conclusion is that none can be justified by the works of the Law. But that is precisely what Paul states here. That argument fails not only because we see men justified by doing the will of God (which is what the Law itself can be defined as, though it must be kept in the context in which is it given), that is what the verse above states. The Gentiles had the revelation of the works of the Law (God's will for their lives, which can only be revealed by God HImself) and the contrast is given between those who performed the works of the Law and those who did not (implied in v.13). And if we keep reading...


Romans 2:23-27 King James Version (KJV)

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?


There is simply no way to dismiss vv.13-15 as hypothetical. It is evident in both the Old Testament as well as clarified in the New that whether one kept the Law or not...mattered. Again, we do not view the keeping of the Covenant of Law as a means of salvation, or Eternal Redemption. God's will for Man, whether prior to the formalized Covenant of Law or after, was for Man's benefit in the context of physical existence. Temporal Justification can be viewed as relevant to the salvation of the Old Testament Saints in that Justification secured their eternal destinies during their lifetime, but every Old Testament Saint died awaiting Eternal Redemption through Christ, which was attained by them postmortem. Eternal Redemption is only possible when it is Christ's righteousness imputed to the behalf of the individual. That is an irrefutable Biblical Doctrine. It might be likened to having an airplane ticket. One can have the ticket but until they board the plane they're still in the terminal (no pun intended).


And if you look at the establishment of the Law you are going to see that God demanded they keep the Law when He established it, judged them when they didn't, and justified them when they did. Let's look at two such individuals:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Now, before anyone gets too excited and mistakenly thinks I am teaching salvation by works, let me just remind you the context is speaking of justification...and this in a temporal context (and thus, no...Scripture is not contradicting itself!). They were not saved because they walked in all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless...they were justified. Just as Abraham was justified by his belief, faith, and works (notably his willingness to offer up Isaac at the command of the Lord).


Continued...

Rome holds to another gospel