Temporal Justification

[Darrell C]

Always been justified and saved by same way throughout history !

Prove it.

Where's your Scripture. That's what the thread is meant to do, discuss Scripture, not opinions.

Rome holds to another gospel

This is not a thread to bash Catholics. If all you're interested in is taking potshots, then find another thread, please. This is for the grownups.




God bless.

 

[Cathode]

Just wanted to share with you Brother (if it's ok) that many are unaware of the meaning-usages of "justified" here in James, and in many other same usages. The word "justified" has two meanings: to make one righteous (as only Jesus can do by imputation but not by impartation, for the divine attributes of God are incommunicable); to show one is righteous (as our works do). Thus faith is shown by works, or there is no faith. God imputes righteousness and justification to man, and man manifests (justifies) it by the godly lifestyle (works). Faith effects works so faith is first, then works from faith, as they are separate in their administration, and work in order. Faith first, then works will definitely result, for you won't have faith without works; faith always produces works, or it isn't faith.

The way I’ve seen it people have got to have Faith and Love together not Faith alone.
Paul warns dudes about having great faith but having no Love, Love is good works.
But they amount to nothing, read it, it’s in Paul’s writings somewhere.

That’s why I worry and warn people about it when they talk about about faith alone, because Love is essential.

We received the Grace of Faith to believe in one instance, but the ongoing Grace we receive to Love is given as our daily bread as life unfolds and those opportunities to Love revealed each day.

Jesus judges dudes by their love or lack of it in that judgement story.

“When I was hungry, you gave me something to eat “

Those people who didn’t show Love by good works were condemned.

Good works is an outgrowth of Love and is Love in action.

Of the three things that remain Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.
I get worried dudes are overemphasising one over the other, because you have got to have both Faith and Love together, and Paul warns about having Faith alone without Love, even if it’s a huge Faith.

 

[37818]

The way I’ve seen it people have got to have Faith and Love together not Faith alone.

Your comment brings to mind, 1 John 3:23 referring to John 12:50 and John 13:34.

1 John 3:23, " . . . And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. . . ."

John 12:50, ". . . And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. . . ."

John 13:34, ". . . A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. . . ."

 

[Cathode]

Your comment brings to mind, 1 John 3:23 referring to John 12:50 and John 13:34.

1 John 3:23, " . . . And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. . . ."

John 12:50, ". . . And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. . . ."

John 13:34, ". . . A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. . . ."

That’s right mate.

We can see dudes Justified eternally or condemned eternally by their Love/good works or lack of it in Scripture.

Matt 25
“37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This is why in the morning we ask for the Grace from The Father to Love all the people He sends us this day, even the least dude we try to treat as Jesus.

In a mysterious way everyone we are sent is Jesus even the least person we consider.

 

[37818]

. . . James makes it very clear that Abraham was not justified by faith only, but by works also:


James 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . .

Abraham was first justified by faith, Genesis 15:6. And many years later Abraham was justified his works, Genesis 22:12, ". . . Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. . . ."

These are two distinct acts of justification. Paul taught it the following way to the Ephesian church, Ephesians 2:8-10, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."

 

[Cathode]

Again, I believe all men receive of the internal witness of God.

And again, these men were justified by doing the works of the Law. They are declared righteous. They are justified.

How do we reconcile that with ...

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Does this not imply a differing context? Meaning, a temporal context in which men are justified according to their works, and an eternal context in which men are justified freely by God?




Do you see a difference between the two?




It's similar to the fact that we have not received our glorified bodies: they had not received Eternal Redemption. They were saved by grace through faith, but at that time in history they still awaited the fulfillment of the promises of God. It is my opinion that they were every bit as "saved" as we are, but had to await receiving Eternal Redemption and reconciliation with God postmortem. Just as we all have to wait for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to receive our glorified bodies.



Because we are not glorified doesn't mean we are "less saved" than we will be when we do.

I started a thread on New Birth, please join me there to discuss Regeneration. I look forward to seeing your Biblical presentation of Regeneration in the Old Testament. You seem to give things thought, and that is always appreciated.

God bless.

Dude I think you have over complicated things a little, but it’s good you are meditating on the word.

People are judged by their Love or lack of Love, not just temporally but for eternity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was actually just accused of that in the Calvinist forum, lol.

.

But of course you were LOL

 

[Darrell C]

Abraham was first justified by faith, Genesis 15:6. And many years later Abraham was justified his works, Genesis 22:12, ". . . Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. . . ."

These are two distinct acts of justification. Paul taught it the following way to the Ephesian church, Ephesians 2:8-10, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."

I would agree we see faith in the first event we see Abraham justified, and works in the second (Isaac's offering), however, look at both events and tell me whether Abraham was justified in an eternal sense.

That is the focus of the study.

As the OP suggests, I view both of these events as justification in the temporal sense, rather than the eternal:


Romans 3:23-26 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


I see a distinction between being justified through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus and being justified based on our faith, belief, and works.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. What Abraham believed was not that Jesus Christ died in his stead, but that God would give him a son, and that through that son all nations/families of the earth would be blessed.

See what I mean?

Romans 3 declares Justification which is based on the shed blood (the death) of Christ, and Romans 4 is given as a precedent for being declared righteous apart from works. In other words, Paul is saying, "If you have a problem with what I am saying, that men are being justified freely by God without having to do anything, think about Abraham. Wasn't he justified without works?"

Note in v.26 that he says "Now, at this time, God is declaring justification based on the righteousness of Christ, that He might be just and justify those who believe on Christ." It denotes a difference between "There is none righteous" despite the fact men were declared righteous (Abraham being the example) as well as states the specific object of belief, Jesus Christ.

Noah and Abraham are two great examples of men declared just/righteous, yet because they were not privy to the Gospel (though they heard the Gospel, howbeit veiled), the object of their faith was other than the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

Now, at this time (in this Age), God is declaring, not Abraham's righteousness because he believed God would give him a son and that his wife would bear despite her age, but Christ's righteousness.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Dude I think you have over complicated things a little, but it’s good you are meditating on the word.

It is a complicated matter, lol.

But not one I don't think we can't work through.

Basically, I see a difference between Abraham being justified based on the Gospel in its veiled form (that God would give him a son all families of the earth would be blessed through) and God at this time declaring the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

In case you are not familiar with the doctrine I hold to, I take the position that men were not born again prior to the coming of the Comforter at Pentecost (and no I am not a Pentecostal because I used the word Pentecost, lol) when men began to be baptized into Christ. I do view Temporal Justification as significant to the eternal destinies of the Old Testament Saints, and that they were just as "saved" as you and I. However, the progression of salvation throughout Biblical History goes, in my view, hand in hand with the progression of revelation. In their day, for example, they awaited Messiah for salvation/redemption (whereas we receive Eternal Redemption during our lifetimes through Regeneration and Eternal Union with God). In our day, we await the redemption of our bodies. So neither group, we or they, have received the "end" of our salvation (which is ultimately the Eternal State).

The point is, they, and we, are saved, but we are saved at a different point in time in the progression.

They were saved based on their response to the revelation they received and their faith in it (just as we are), but they did not receive Eternal Redemption (which includes remission of sins on an eternal basis (and just so you know I use "eternal" in a context of within God's realm as opposed to the temporal)) until Christ actually died. We see that here:

Romans 3:23-26 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

And here:

Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

That the sins of those under Law had not been redeemed on an eternal basis yet is also seen here:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


So when we consider that despite the provision for remission of sins (animal sacrifice) in the (entire) Old Testament, the sins of all those justified still had to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ. They were declared righteous, yet despite that, the conclusion is...


Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

People are judged by their Love or lack of Love, not just temporally but for eternity.

Not necessarily true...


Hebrews 10:17 King James Version

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


... unless one is not saved.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The way I’ve seen it people have got to have Faith and Love together not Faith alone.
Paul warns dudes about having great faith but having no Love, Love is good works.
But they amount to nothing, read it, it’s in Paul’s writings somewhere.

That’s why I worry and warn people about it when they talk about about faith alone, because Love is essential.

We received the Grace of Faith to believe in one instance, but the ongoing Grace we receive to Love is given as our daily bread as life unfolds and those opportunities to Love revealed each day.

Jesus judges dudes by their love or lack of it in that judgement story.

“When I was hungry, you gave me something to eat “

Those people who didn’t show Love by good works were condemned.

Good works is an outgrowth of Love and is Love in action.

Of the three things that remain Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.
I get worried dudes are overemphasising one over the other, because you have got to have both Faith and Love together, and Paul warns about having Faith alone without Love, even if it’s a huge Faith.

I would agree with the sentiment here, however, faith alone as a doctrinal position is in an entirely different context than that in which faith, hope, and love are contrasted. That is specifically directed at those who are saved, whereas sola fide is of a salvific context.

However, that is one of the reason for this thread, because in my view—sola fide is a bit misleading.

Let me explain: most today argue between faith alone and faith and works. And when they argue (and it usually is an argument), they attribute a salvific context to it, meaning, when they say men are justified by faith alone, or they say men are justified by faith and works, what their minds are thinking is Men are saved by faith alone or faith and works.

And the context of both James and Romans 4 is, in my view—temporal, not eternal.

I do believe that their faith and belief, which was generated by God (through His divine intervention and revelation), not an internal ability they had—saved them from an eternal perspective. They were every bit as saved as we are, but they died not receiving the promises of God. Promises such as the eternal indwelling of God, whereby men could walk in His statutes and judgments, and keep them (Ezekiel 36:27). Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Hebrews 10:17). Eternal Life while we are still physically alive.

As I said, I agree with the above sentiment, however, we cannot be saved by loving people. We can only be saved and receive His promises through the Cross of Christ, and His Resurrection.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

That’s right mate.

We can see dudes Justified eternally or condemned eternally by their Love/good works or lack of it in Scripture.

Matt 25
“37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This is why in the morning we ask for the Grace from The Father to Love all the people He sends us this day, even the least dude we try to treat as Jesus.

In a mysterious way everyone we are sent is Jesus even the least person we consider.

The above event, the Sheep and Goat judgment, does not justify (no pun intended) a position that salvation is based on works. One cannot be justified on an eternal basis based on loving people. One can only be justified on an eternal basis for loving Christ. Love for people will be a result of one's love for God. Atheists can love one another, and do charitable works, it won't result in justification on an eternal basis, because they have rejected the one thing that can justify on an eternal basis, faith in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:23-24 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We can see dudes Justified eternally or condemned eternally by their Love/good works or lack of it in Scripture.

This is the Scriptural basis you provide for your assertion:

Matt 25
“37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


These are believers saved during the Tribulation. They are justified on an eternal basis because they are believers. The Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, and while we know there is a deeper understanding to John 3, I would ask you to consider something:


John 3:3-5 King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


While you and I (and all born-again believers) can understand this in hindsight, having the benefit of the New Testament teachings, for Nicodemus "The Kingdom of God" was the promised Kingdom of Restored Israel. When the Lord asks him, "Art thou a teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?" He rebukes Nicodemus. Most will think that the Lord is saying Nicodemus should have understood what being born again meant, and in part that is true. However, in light of the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was yet a Mystery that would not be revealed until the Comforter came—evidenced by the fact no disciple preached the revealed Gospel unit Pentecost—we must look at the statement within the historical context.

And if we do that, we see that Nicodemus would understand this to mean that no one would enter into that physical Kingdom Messiah would set up.

That is still true.

So when we look at the Sheep and Goat Judgment, we understand that all who enter into that physical Kingdom (the Millennial Kingdom) will be born-again believers. All born-again believers will be judged (1 Corinthians 3), truly, but they are not Justified on an eternal basis because of the works they did. They were justified freely through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.


God bless.

 

[37818]

I would agree we see faith in the first event we see Abraham justified, and works in the second (Isaac's offering), however, look at both events and tell me whether Abraham was justified in an eternal sense.

That is the focus of the study.

As the OP suggests, I view both of these events as justification in the temporal sense, rather than the eternal: . . .

I believe the justification by faith was of the eternal in nature.
Romans 4:1-5, ". . . What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." Again Ephesians 2:8-9.
[Also James letter was written before Paul's writings.] Works are for rewards. [1 Corinthians 3:11-14.] Righteousness can only be by a bought gift, Romans 3:23-26, Romans 6:23. [Romans 11:6.]

 

[Darrell C]

I believe the justification by faith was of the eternal in nature.
Romans 4:1-5, ". . . What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." Again Ephesians 2:8-9.
[Also James letter was written before Paul's writings.] Works are for rewards. [1 Corinthians 3:11-14.] Righteousness can only be by a bought gift, Romans 3:23-26, Romans 6:23. [Romans 11:6.]

Again, I would agree to a certain extent, because Temporal Justification was a part of their salvation. It still remains that they were saved by grace through faith, but it equally remains that they were not eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Christ:

Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Romans 3:23-26 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Faith is the only element seen in this instance of Temporal Justification:

Luke 18:9-14 King James Version

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


This man would still need for Christ to die in His stead so that he might be reconciled to God:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Abraham was justified, however, he was not reconciled to God in his lifetime. He died awaiting the promises.

He was saved from the eternal perspective (God's), because his eternal destiny was secured by grace through faith. He was justified during his lifetime but had not received the Atonement nor was he reconciled to God. God performed His reconciliatory work in the Person of the Son through the Work of Christ.

So, yes, I think we can see an eternal aspect to Abraham's Temporal Justification, but I don't think we can equate that with the Eternal Justification accomplished through Christ. Abraham is now justified based on Christ's Righteousness alone. He was justified by faith alone in his lifetime because he believed God would give him a son. That is what the record of Scripture tells us:


Romans 4 King James Version

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.


19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:


20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;


21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Abraham did not have faith in the revealed Gospel of Christ, but the veiled Gospel of Christ. This is seen in this passage, as well as here:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


The revelation given to Abraham was the Gospel, to be sure, but Abraham could not understand it as we do. He understood exactly what Scripture tells us, that he believed God would give him a son and that all nations of the earth would be blessed through that seed.

He did not understand that the Seed was singular:


Galatians 3:16 King James Version

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Would you concede that Abraham's understanding of the Gospel was limited to only understanding that all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed (and I'm narrowing in on the context of the Gospel, not saying this is the only promise given Abraham)?


God bless.

 

[37818]

Romans 4:23, ". . . Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; . . ." Referring to Genesis 15:1-6, Romans 4:3, ". . . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. . . "

So I am not understanding a difficulty.

Except an apparent difficulty by not understanding, God's grace > faith > justification > works > justification > rewards.

But the making it into faith > works > justification. Negating the grace.

 

[Campion]

The above event, the Sheep and Goat judgment, does not justify (no pun intended) a position that salvation is based on works. One cannot be justified on an eternal basis based on loving people. One can only be justified on an eternal basis for loving Christ. Love for people will be a result of one's love for God. Atheists can love one another, and do charitable works, it won't result in justification on an eternal basis, because they have rejected the one thing that can justify on an eternal basis, faith in Christ Jesus:







This is the Scriptural basis you provide for your assertion:

Matt 25
“37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


These are believers saved during the Tribulation. They are justified on an eternal basis because they are believers. The Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, and while we know there is a deeper understanding to John 3, I would ask you to consider something:


John 3:3-5 King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


While you and I (and all born-again believers) can understand this in hindsight, having the benefit of the New Testament teachings, for Nicodemus "The Kingdom of God" was the promised Kingdom of Restored Israel. When the Lord asks him, "Art thou a teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?" He rebukes Nicodemus. Most will think that the Lord is saying Nicodemus should have understood what being born again meant, and in part that is true. However, in light of the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was yet a Mystery that would not be revealed until the Comforter came—evidenced by the fact no disciple preached the revealed Gospel unit Pentecost—we must look at the statement within the historical context.

And if we do that, we see that Nicodemus would understand this to mean that no one would enter into that physical Kingdom Messiah would set up.

That is still true.

So when we look at the Sheep and Goat Judgment, we understand that all who enter into that physical Kingdom (the Millennial Kingdom) will be born-again believers. All born-again believers will be judged (1 Corinthians 3), truly, but they are not Justified on an eternal basis because of the works they did. They were justified freely through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.


God bless.

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity (love), St. Paul tells us the greatest is charity (love). (cf. 1 Cor 13:13).

In EVERY last judgement account referenced in the New Testament, man is judged by how much he has loved. The most explicit account, which you and the other poster reference, is our Blessed Lord's description in Matthew 25. Jesus' last judgement account actually destroys any concept of sola fide...


- First, notice the goats actually acknowledge Christ as their Lord. (Their sola fide didn't save them.)


- Secondly, notice both the sheep and the goats are actually surprised by our Blessed Lord's judgement. (Demonstrating virtue is a habit and that no one is saved until Christ renders judgement, regardless of whether they have declared themselves to saved.)


- Thirdly, and more importantly, notice our Blessed Lord's final words in St. Matthew's last judgement account. Those words are...


"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Mt. 25:46)


The righteous: δίκαιος / dikaios = observing the divine laws; upright; righteous; virtuous; keeping the commands of God


Charity is the greatest work. A single drop of charity is greater than the raising of the dead.

 

[kyredneck]

We can see dudes Justified eternally or condemned eternally by their Love/good works or lack of it in Scripture.

Excellent deduction Sherlock! I wish a few others could see it.

 

[kyredneck]

Dude I think you have over complicated things a little,

Excellent deduction Sherlock! ...a bit 'windy too'...

 

[Darrell C]

Excellent deduction Sherlock! ...a bit 'windy too'...

Mocking other members is not a worthy contribution to any discussion. If you don't have a heart for serious discussion at least don't interfere with those who do wish to have discussion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity (love), St. Paul tells us the greatest is charity (love). (cf. 1 Cor 13:13).

In EVERY last judgement account referenced in the New Testament, man is judged by how much he has loved. The most explicit account, which you and the other poster reference, is our Blessed Lord's description in Matthew 25. Jesus' last judgement account actually destroys any concept of sola fide...

First, did you read what I posted? Have you no response for the specific points made?

Secondly, let's take a look at the virtues of a born-again believer:


2 Peter 1:4-5 King James Version

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


...I can stop there.

Notice that those things which undergird good works power—to our faith?

So I must reiterate the point already made—you are blurring contexts. The temporal with the eternal, the fleshly with the spiritual.

- First, notice the goats actually acknowledge Christ as their Lord. (Their sola fide didn't save them.)

No, the knowledge of Jesus Christ saved them. The knowledge of Jesus Christ is supplied to men, not through intellectual pursuit, but by direct revelation of God to the heart of the believer. That is the primary ministry of the Comforter, to convict men, first, of sin, then of righteousness, and then—of judgment.

The chicken came before the egg, my friend.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

- Secondly, notice both the sheep and the goats are actually surprised by our Blessed Lord's judgement. (Demonstrating virtue is a habit and that no one is saved until Christ renders judgement, regardless of whether they have declared themselves to saved.)

So let me see if I am understanding your position correctly: you are saying no one is yet saved?

I'll start that issue with just one verse:

1 John 5:13 King James Version

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


I hope I have misinterpreted what you are saying, but If you are saying no one is saved yet, then my friend—you are denying the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.

John seems pretty sure that those who believe on Christ are saved. Unless you don't consider having eternal life as a reference to being saved?


Continued...