Featured Trichotomy or Dichotomy

I would also like you to take a look at this (and I will again remove BBCode and provide link to original statement):

Original question:

Secondly, in answer to this question, here is something that I feel makes an impact on this doctrine:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (h5315).

The word living is: ḥay.
חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

The word soul is:nep̄eš.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

See where else they are found:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living h2416 creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living h2416 creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


Both man and the "living creatures" were created as "souls," which is the body and the life (which is the spirit).

Now for a New Testament comparison to look for consistency:


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living g2198 soul g5590; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living g2198 soul g5590 died in the sea.

Here, living is zaō. ζάω záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

"Soul" is psychē. ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


This is in response to a question concerning whether animals have souls.

Have a blessed Lord's Day.


God bless.

 

While discussing the Atonement, and when it was applied to men, another verse came up that I think might be useful for this discussion as well:


Hebrews 12:22-24 King James Version

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Like Luke's account of the disciples and the Lord's response in Luke 24, here we see the Writer refer to "the spirits of just men made perfect." He does not refer to the "souls of just men made perfect."

"Perfection" is of course "completion (Jesus is the Author and Finisher/Completer/Perfecter of our faith)," which the Old Testament did not receive in their lifetimes:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


While it would be acceptable to say "souls" made perfect, the fact that the reference to the spirit of men indicates that the spirit is the essence of man that houses the reality of his existence. This would, though, be another indication of a spirit departed from their bodies, in my view.


God bless.

 

Speaking of polysemous meanings for "soul" 1 Thessalonians 5:23 could be understood to mean, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I already addressed that Hebrews 4:12 supports the unity of spirit and soul. See post #20.

 

I hold to the Dichotomist view. Man is both material and immaterial.

 

This is an extremely long post, but I'll do my best to answer it before the day is over.

We go to a great little local coffee shop called "Fiddleheads."

I'm not sure how you think this invalidates trichotomy. The Bible is clear that we communicate with God with our human spirit. The souls in Heaven in Revelation 6:9 are talking to God, yes, but it says nothing about the means of doing so. After all, they are not resurrected yet--have no bodies and thus no tongues.

1 Cor. 14:14-15 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."


I posted this a few posts back, and submit it for your consideration:

Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:

Several points.
1. The word for "spirit" in these passages is the Greek pneuma (), as you know. This word has a very wide range of meaning in the language. In the cases you have mentioned, it means what we Americans call "ghost." In our Japanese NT, we differentiated between the word "spirit" here in Luke 24 with 幽霊 (yuurei), a word for "ghost," as compared to the "Spirit" of God, for which we used the simpler 霊 (rei). In Japanese, the one Greek word must represent more than one Japanese word, because the Greek word simply carries more than the same range of meaning in Japanese. So the disciples thought they saw a spooky ghost. That's all.

2. You are forming your theology from the reaction of a group of scared, uneducated (except by Jesus) fishermen. No theologian I know of does theology that way. Rather, we use the clear statements of Scripture to do theology, not the reactions of scared and unspiritual human beings recorded in Scripture. Also, I rather think they were thinking back to the one genuine "ghost" in Scripture, Samuel being called up for King Saul.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The passage does not say a spirit being separated from a body. Heb. 4:12 specifically mentions a division between soul and spirit.

I see no connection with this statement and dichotomy or trichotomy.

Right. One of the meanings of the Hebrew word is "person." This negates nothing about trichotomy. Please don't make the mistake of the amateur linguist/Bible translator of always translating one word in the original by only one word in the target language. (This is called translating by concordance; cf Young's Literal Translation, which does this a lot.)

Continued:

 

The Hebrew word can and should be translated "person" here. There is neither dichotomy nor trichotomy in the picture. Problem solved.

The word "soul" (nephesh, נפשׁ) in the BDB Hebrew Lexicon:

"1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious"

 

So then you have "spirit and soul and body" in the passage meaning "soul and soul and body." Doesn't work linguistically.

 

You say that Heb. 4:12 does not teach a division. Yet the very word "dividing asunder" in the verse means "division." Here is the meaning in the Ginrich Shorter Lexicon:

"μἐρισμος separation Hb 4:12. Distribution, apportionment 2:4.* [pg 125] "

Hmm. Whom shall I believe, Van or Gingrich???

 

I have no problem with this. We are made perfect in our spirits on earth, according to trichotomy. Our souls are not yet perfect, since we have an old nature, a sin nature. The Holy Spirit is then able to live within us without living in our souls with their sin nature.

 

I'm not sure where you got these definitions--couldn't track it down. However, I have to say that these are so short they merely have glosses (short definitions, usually only one word). The definitions in actual lexicons are far longer, showing the complexity of translating these words.

For example, here is the entry in Holladay's Hebrew-English lexicon, as accessed through BibleWorks software. (Unfortunately, the BB does not transfer the words in Hebrew.)

vp,n< (ca. 750 ×): vp,n"), sf. yvip.n:, ^v,(p.n:, Wnvep.n: (Wnyvep.n: La 59); pl. t¿AÀvop'n>, cs. tAvp.n:, sf. ~t'vop.n:, Wnytevop.n:: — 1. throat Is 514; — 2. neck Ps 10518; 3. breath Jb 4113, what makes man & animals living beings Gn 120, ‘soul’ (to be sharply distinguished fm. Greek idea of soul) whose seat is the blood Gn 94f; — 4. nefeš µayyâ living beign Gn 120 ( = animals), 27 (man); — 5. man, men, person, people: a) nefeš °¹d¹m man (i.e person) Lv 2417, = slaves Ez 2713; hœr¢gnefeš whoever kills a person Nu 3119; pl. kol-nafšôt bêtô all the persons in his household Gn 366; °eµ¹d nefeš one (out of every 500) Nu 3128; kol-nefeš °¹d¹m any person Lv 2417, nefeš b®h¢mâ a head of cattle 2418; ±¹´â nefeš acquire people, rear persons (slaves?) Gn 125, q¹nâ nefeš buy a slave Lv 2211; b) population: kol-nefeš all per- sons, everyone Gn 4615; w. numbers Gn 4618; pl. n®f¹šôt Ex 124; — 6. personality, individuality: a) nafšî (&c.), stressed I (myself) Gn 274, so nafš¢nû we Ps 1247; b) expression of reflexive, esp. stressed: k®nafšô like himself 1S 183; ±annôt n¹feš self-humiliation, penance Nu 3014; c) kol-nefeš every one = each one Ex 1216 , kol-nefeš °šer the one who, whoever Lv 727, hannefeš °šer 720, hannefeš w. pt. 718, nefeš °šer one who 52; — 7. life (of a person, a single life): nefeš h¹°¹d¹m Gn 95, ±al-nafšek¹ (flee) for your life 1917, biqq¢š nefeš seek (s.one’s) life 1K 1910; b®ƒ¢°t nafš¹h as her (breath =) life left her Gn 3518; hikkâ nefeš strike dead 3721; h¢šîb nefeš give (new, fresh) life Ru 415; — 8. ‘soul’ as seat & support of feelings & sensations: a) desire (even inordinate desire): (of love) SS 17; n¹´¹° nefeš °el have desire for Ho 48; ma´´¹° nefeš desire Ez 2425; ba±al nefeš greedy (for food) Pr 232, r®µab nefeš greedy (for possessions) 2825; nefeš is never satisfied Ec 63, never quieted Ps 3525; b) mood, state of mind: of g¢r Ex 239, of cattle Pr 1210; c) feeling, taste Nu 215; d) will: y¢š °et-nafš®kem you are willing Gn 238; — 9. someone dead, a dead person, corpse: ´ere‰ lannefeš a slash because of the dead Lv 1928; nefeš m¢t dead body Nu 66, > nefeš (w/o m¢t) 611; Ez 1318-20 nafšôt, hunted by women who prophesy, usu. of disembodied souls hunted by magic, but sugg. simply ‘persons’; — 10. b¹ttê hannefeš perfume-bottles Is 320. (pg 243)

 

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So I had the meaning of human spirit having the seat of feelings, desires, affections, aversions, and our physical body. Works linguistically, logically and biblically.

 

LOL, the unity of the spirit and soul is what is divided asunder by the two edged sword.

2. a separation: ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καί πνεύματος, which many take actively: 'up to the dividing' i. e. so far as to cleave asunder or separate; but it is not easy to understand what the dividing of the 'soul' is. Hence, it is more correct, I think, and more in accordance with the context, to take the word passively (just as other verbal substantive ending in μος are used, e. g. ἁγιασμός, πειρασμός), and translate even to the division, etc., i. e. to that most hidden spot, the dividing line between soul and spirit, where the one passes into the other, Hebrews 4:12; (cf. Siegfried, Philo von Alex. as above with, p. 325f). From Thayer's Greek Lexicon by Biblesoft ​

 

I don't think I agree with this. Let me ask a couple.

Is there some sort of perfection seen in the following? And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Rom 8:23 YLT

Is that relative to the hope seen in V 24,25? Is it relative to the hope of V 20? Is the accomplishment of the redemption of the body by the means spoken of in V 11? Does that and is that at the moment of Paul's blessed hope?

Now compare to Paul's thoughts as seen in Phil 3:7-14 YLT
But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss; yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, (I might add, Of Christ) to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead. Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus; brethren, I do not reckon myself to have laid hold; and one thing -- the things behind indeed forgetting, and to the things before stretching forth -- to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Isn't all of that from Phil 3 at the same moment of that from Rom 8 the manifestation of the sons of God 8:19? See also Luke 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Also IMHO 1 Cor 13:9-12 speaks of the same thing. The perfection of us.
for in part we know, and in part we prophecy; and when that which is perfect may come, then that which is in part shall become useless. When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe; for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then <when that which is perfect is come) face to face; now I know in part, and then <When that which is perfect is come) I shall fully know, as also I was known;

! john 3 :2,3 comes to mind also
beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; and every one who is having this hope on him, doth purify himself, even as he is pure. ------ There's that hope again. Same hope?

 

One more question.

Is Jesus as our High Priest currently perfecting our life (spirit) before the Father in heaven as we live out our still sinning selves here on the earth?

This relative to Heb 12.

 

Sorry, the grammar does not work that way. The beginning Greek student learns very early (the 4th lesson in Black's grammar) that the double conjunction kai...kai (και...και, "both...and") with "spirit" (πνεῦμα) and "soul" (ψυχή) means that "spirit" and "soul" are two separate things, not "soul" somehow modifying "spirit." If you are going to be a dichotomist, you have to deal with the words separately in this verse.

 

Well...yeah. I have not said that spirit and soul can be cut off from each other, nor do I believe that. The argument is that they are separate but unified parts of the human inner man.

Yes, thank you. Thayer makes my point, even though I rarely use his lexicon any more, since it is out of date. To be fair, though, my Greek students are required to buy a Thayer's for their introduction to lexicography.

 

I did use "Kai" as a double conjunction, stop making up non-germane arguments. Spirit is separated from "and the seat..." as two separate things.

 

The quote makes my point, the sword divides the unity.

 

My argument was totally germane. I'm sorry you could not internalize it.

 

Right. Exactly. So there are two parts, spirit and soul, with a division between them.