No, as He hasn't yet physically & visibly come.
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The NT does not teach Christ to return soon.
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I agree. The NT DOES NOT teach what we would think is a soon return of the Lord Jesus Christ from His point of Psalm 19:13 King James Version (KJV) 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. King James Version (KJV).
I agree with you that the NT does not teach the soon return of the Lord Jesus as we consider soon. It has now been nearly 2000 years so I fail to understand why anyone would argue the point of a soon return.
That being said I am not looking for His return. I believe the church will be removed by the rapture prior to the tribulation which means we will be coming back with Him when He does return.
Silverhair
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I am curious as to which 1000 yrs would be the ones where the Devil and Satan were bound. There would have been real peace as they would not have been here would they and we would have had Christ Jesus reigning during that 1000 yrs. Rev_20:4 "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The we have to look at the fact that he was released for a short time. Now if the short time was less than the 1000 yrs which would seem to be a logical conclusion then we should have seen the return of Christ Jesus would you not think?
Silverhair
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If you are a Christian you are not under the law. Gal_5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Silverhair
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And you ignore Gal_5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
So if you consider yourself to be under the law then you are saying you are not a Christian.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It can happen only with a huge dust storm or great clouds of smoke.
Not sure what this "lost" discussion has to do with "soon" or "quickly," but a quick search reveals that Paul did say that Gentile folks are lost in 2 Cor. 4:3-4.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Tom is a full preterist--a rare breed, thank the Lord.
Had Jesus already come, He would still physically ruling the world with a rod of iron, that is, very strictly. But Rev. 19:11-21 shows that notion false. It shows the beast will be in power when He returns, and once He returns, He will not depart again.
Last time I suggested this, Tom was irate, but I have to say it. If Christ came the second time already in AD 70, and there is no longer a Second Coming of Christ, the future stretches out interminably, hopelessly, without the extreme wickedness of this old world being corrected by having Christ coming and fixing it all. And that statement applies whether one is preil, postmil, or amil, as long as one believes Christ is still coming back someday.
Full preterism is unscriptural, but is also a hopeless, sad doctrine. (Using the Greek successfully opposes it, though--Tom has told me more than once that I depend on the Greek too much--ignoring the fact that the NT came to us in Greek.)
Full preterism is unscriptural, but is also a hopeless, sad doctrine. (Using the Greek successfully opposes it, though--Tom has told me more than once that I depend on the Greek too much--ignoring the fact that the NT came to us in Greek.)
Just read through the whole thread, and no one has yet noted that "generation" (genea, γενεά, 37 verses in the NT) has as its first meaning "race," referring to the Jewish people. And I believe that it should usually be translated that way rather than "generation." Thus, there is no problem with the "generation" passages to one who takes a premil position. I would even say that "generation" is a mistaken rendering.
"γενεά, strictly birth, the circumstances relating to one's origin; (1) literally, those descended from a common ancestor race, clan, descendants (perhaps AC 8.33); as an ethnic group kind (LU 16.8)" (Friberg, Friberg & Mille, Analytical Greek Lexicon, accessed through BibleWorks 9). The first meaning is always the most common and important meaning.
"γενεά, strictly birth, the circumstances relating to one's origin; (1) literally, those descended from a common ancestor race, clan, descendants (perhaps AC 8.33); as an ethnic group kind (LU 16.8)" (Friberg, Friberg & Mille, Analytical Greek Lexicon, accessed through BibleWorks 9). The first meaning is always the most common and important meaning.
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Another word that trashes full preterism is (parousia, παρουσία, 24 verses in the NT). The full preterist wants to say that in AD 70 Christ came back--that was His parousia. However, the word always--ALWAYS--means physical coming. Just one example:
1 Cor. 16:17--"I am glad of the coming (parousia) of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied."
Christ's Second Coming must--MUST--be physical, and thus He cannot have come "spiritually", fulfilling all of the prophecies, in AD 70. Full preterism could not be more wrong.
1 Cor. 16:17--"I am glad of the coming (parousia) of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied."
Christ's Second Coming must--MUST--be physical, and thus He cannot have come "spiritually", fulfilling all of the prophecies, in AD 70. Full preterism could not be more wrong.
John stated to us that all eyes shall see Him, will be a physical appearing, not some spiritual pretense as taught by Pretierists and the Watchtower!
And Scripture proves this. Jesus Christ will never, ever return "spiritually." His coming must be a physical coming because you cannot separate His spirit from His resurrected body--the Bible says so: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Imagine Jesus leaving His body up in Heaven--dead!--so that He could come to earth just as a spirit in AD 70. Frankly, this makes full preterism look ridiculous!
Preterism makes preterism look rediculous.
The Meaning of "parousia" in Greek | Page 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)
"That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT. Only minutes earlier in the temple had Christ prophesied again concerning that particular generation:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23
Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.
The 'preunderstanding of the Modern Linguistics school' that you are again demonstrating complicates and disconnects, and in this instance destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32
8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12
1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2
And Josephus certainly had nothing good to say of 'that generation':
“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5
“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6
“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2"
In every single case that you have listed, "race" is a perfectly acceptable translation. As I said in the post you came up with from 11 years ago (Really??? But hey, it was a good thread. What can I say.), the renderings of "age" or "era" are fine, too.
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What "modern linguistics school" am I a part of??? That's actually a throwaway phrase, meaningless without context. Robert Thomas (in his textbook, Evangelical Hermeneutics) used the phrase in a derogatory way about David Alan Black, whose Greek textbook I use. Black uses such oh-so-modern concepts as morphology, phonology, verbal aspect--all of which date back to before Leonard Bloomfield's groundbreaking textbook Language (1933). My copy of Bloomfield's tome is from the class in linguistics my father took at Wheaton College back in the 1940's. Really up to date!
So, that's your "modern linguistics," up to date from the 1930's. Thomas and anyone else who criticizes "modern linguistics" simply doesn't understand linguistics.
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We all change when we learn new things, but am I understanding you correctly that you now think that the Jews are an evil, crooked, and adulterous race?
2022:
We all change when we learn new things, but am I understanding you correctly that you now think that the Jews are an evil, crooked, and adulterous race?
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