Is God not sovereign in a Christan's life after we are saved?

[George Antonios]

What I really suspect and what really is, may be two different matters entirely, George.
As a mere man who judges things on the outward appearance and who cannot look upon the heart, anything that I observe is not going to be perfect.


My wish for you, as always,
is that He bless you greatly with all that He has for His children.

You weren't shy about telling what you suspect once already, Dave.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, God is fully Sovereign.
God does not lie nor speak falsely or go back on His word. Therefore, in his sovereignty, he holds himself to his own covenant. (In other words, he is not disingenuous like you.)
Therefore, when God tells you the means by which people are saved, he does not change his mind just because he could do it some other way.
Silverhair, you are promoting an idea that God lies and does something contrary to what He says, purely because you think lying makes God fully Sovereign and God not lying, somehow diminishes His full sovereignty.
I cannot begin to express how horrific you are in what you are doing. Moreso, you have openly been dishonest in telling me that I do not think God is fully Sovereign if I don't join you in your horrific beliefs.
My honest reaction is to respond with "Get thee behind me, Satan."
But, instead, I will recognize that your belief is contrary to God's word and to be thrown in the dung heap of false teaching.

You give the same tired responses. Your own theology has put God in a box and you refuse to see it. He is only allowed to save if He does it your way. I would say that is your choice but under your theology, since your do not have a free will that would allow for you to make real choices, well you know the rest.

Carry on with your foolish comments as to what I think. Read the bible without the special glasses you use and let the truth guide you, not some philosophy.

 

[canadyjd]

Is God not sovereign after we are saved? Does he choose to minimize His sovereignty in our lives once we are born again? Since I do not believe in the reformed soteriology has God failed in His sovereignty to lead me to right and proper doctrine?

Revmitchell, you have asked a good question. I have pondered that question myself on occasion.

Basically, why are there so many different opinions among professing Christians as to the meaning of scripture?

As someone who believes in God’s sovereignty in salvation and in the world, I struggle to understand why God Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers, doesn’t lead everyone to believe the same thing.

If we are not careful, and some are rarely careful on this board, we might come to the conclusion if someone disagrees, thry don’t have God Holy Spirit indwelling, though they wouldn’t say it directly but imply it regularly.

After many years of pondering, I have an answer.

I just don’t know. Maybe when you and I get to heaven, I’ll force may way to the front where you will be and we can ask Jesus together.

I suspect, however, at that point the question will no longer seem very important.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Revmitchell, you have asked a good question. I have pondered that question myself on occasion.

Basically, why are there so many different opinions among professing Christians as to the meaning of scripture?

As someone who believes in God’s sovereignty in salvation and in the world, I struggle to understand why God Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers, doesn’t lead everyone to believe the same thing.

If we are not careful, and some are rarely careful on this board, we might come to the conclusion if someone disagrees, thry don’t have God Holy Spirit indwelling, though they wouldn’t say it directly but imply it regularly.

After many years of pondering, I have an answer.

I just don’t know. Maybe when you and I get to heaven, I’ll force may way to the front where you will be and we can ask Jesus together.

I suspect, however, at that point the question will no longer seem very important.

peace to you

We all have a sinful nature and our sinful nature fights to be in control. Paul expresses this beautifully in Romans 7. Even though we are redeemed our sinful nature fights against God's authority in our lives. It can be seen in dramatic and subtle ways. One of those subtle ways is in doctrines we embrace that give us authority while attempting to deny God His rightful authority. Sometimes this issue is never fully resolved here on earth while other times God graciously breaks this issue of authority in our lives while we live on this earth.

 

[canadyjd]

We all have a sinful nature and our sinful nature fights to be in control. Paul expresses this beautifully in Romans 7. Even though we are redeemed our sinful nature fights against God's authority in our lives. It can be seen in dramatic and subtle ways. One of those subtle ways is in doctrines we embrace that give us authority while attempting to deny God His rightful authority. Sometimes this issue is never fully resolved here on earth while other times God graciously breaks this issue of authority in our lives while we live on this earth.

I agree with most of what you said. Romans 7, imo, is speaking of a person’s life prior to salvation.

I don’t deny the struggle is there. We can grieve indwelling Holy Spirit and suffer the discipline of God for it.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I agree with most of what you said. Romans 7, imo, is speaking of a person’s life prior to salvation.

I don’t deny the struggle is there. We can grieve indwelling Holy Spirit and suffer the discipline of God for it.

peace to you

We will disagree on Romans 7. Paul is talking about his personal struggle, as a Christian, with his evil desires. We see this similar thought in Galatians.
We often grieve the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 12 we see the goodness of God in disciplining his children. We also see that the Holy Spirit is given as a counselor to us to train us in righteousness.

 

[Revmitchell]

Revmitchell, you have asked a good question. I have pondered that question myself on occasion.

Basically, why are there so many different opinions among professing Christians as to the meaning of scripture?

As someone who believes in God’s sovereignty in salvation and in the world, I struggle to understand why God Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers, doesn’t lead everyone to believe the same thing.

If we are not careful, and some are rarely careful on this board, we might come to the conclusion if someone disagrees, thry don’t have God Holy Spirit indwelling, though they wouldn’t say it directly but imply it regularly.

After many years of pondering, I have an answer.

I just don’t know. Maybe when you and I get to heaven, I’ll force may way to the front where you will be and we can ask Jesus together.

I suspect, however, at that point the question will no longer seem very important.

peace to you

MY point is that some seem to have an inconsistent view of the Sovereignty of God in that they insist that only God can be involved in every detail of man's salvation but are more than willing to not hold to that view of God's Sovereignty once a person is save. The reformed position can only be consistent if they also hold to those who are not reformed are not saved. Although as you said they will not say it on this board because that would be breaking the rules. But not all reformed people hold to that and are therefore inconsistent on the sovereignty of God.

 

[canadyjd]

MY point is that some seem to have an inconsistent view of the Sovereignty of God in that they insist that only God can be involved in every detail of man's salvation but are more than willing to not hold to that view of God's Sovereignty once a person is save. The reformed position can only be consistent if they also hold to those who are not reformed are not saved. Although as you said they will not say it on this board because that would be breaking the rules. But not all reformed people hold to that and are therefore inconsistent on the sovereignty of God.

Ok, let me see if I understand correctly the point you are making……

If a reformed believer holds that God is sovereign in the salvation of believers then they must also hold that anyone who does not hold to reformed theology is not saved?

If they do not hold that anyone who does not hold to reformed theology is unsaved, then they are being inconsistent in their view of God’s sovereignty?

If that is the point you are making, I’ll just say I disagree. A believer’s understanding of these theological issues does not effect their salvation.

Paul gave what was of first importance concerning salvation: Jesus Christ and Him crucified, resurrected and seen by more than 500 people.

Peace to you

 

[CalTech]

You weren't shy about telling what you suspect once already, Dave.

Greetings,

It is very sad that you as a "pastor" responds in such an underhanded and arrogant response, which is not of the spirit of meekness, and humility of heart..........interesting.......

In His Love.....

 

[CalTech]

I agree with most of what you said. Romans 7, imo, is speaking of a person’s life prior to salvation.

I don’t deny the struggle is there. We can grieve indwelling Holy Spirit and suffer the discipline of God for it.

peace to you

Greetings,

Yes, Roman's 7, is speaking about Paul's struggles as a Disciple and an Apostle of Jesus Christ......
And there is no room for accepting otherwise.....it leads to major failure in understanding the full Atonement of Christ, and how HE which began the work of Salvation within us, shall finish it!
There is no debate about that.

The Lord bless you....
In His Love....

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok, let me see if I understand correctly the point you are making……

If a reformed believer holds that God is sovereign in the salvation of believers then they must also hold that anyone who does not hold to reformed theology is not saved?

If they do not hold that anyone who does not hold to reformed theology is unsaved, then they are being inconsistent in their view of God’s sovereignty?

If that is the point you are making, I’ll just say I disagree. A believer’s understanding of these theological issues does not effect their salvation.

Paul gave what was of first importance concerning salvation: Jesus Christ and Him crucified, resurrected and seen by more than 500 people.

Peace to you

Yes I am saying that exactly. Our understanding of theological issues can effect our salvation such as the doctrine of salvation. But most others do not. However, that is irrelevant to what I am saying. We cannot say that God is sovereign in a special kind of way with salvation but not sovereign in exactly the same way after salvation without being inconsistent. That is the point of the op.

 

[AustinC]

MY point is that some seem to have an inconsistent view of the Sovereignty of God in that they insist that only God can be involved in every detail of man's salvation but are more than willing to not hold to that view of God's Sovereignty once a person is save. The reformed position can only be consistent if they also hold to those who are not reformed are not saved. Although as you said they will not say it on this board because that would be breaking the rules. But not all reformed people hold to that and are therefore inconsistent on the sovereignty of God.

I am curious as to who you think is Reformed and then denies the Sovereign work of God in all His Creation. Who is Reformed yet believes there are rogue molecules God doesn't know about.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes I am saying that exactly. Our understanding of theological issues can effect our salvation such as the doctrine of salvation. But most others do not. However, that is irrelevant to what I am saying. We cannot say that God is sovereign in a special kind of way with salvation but not sovereign in exactly the same way after salvation without being inconsistent. That is the point of the op.

Ok, now I understand the point of the OP. I disagree. Let me explain why. This will be a little more lengthy than I like to post, so bare with me.

We all base what we believe on our understanding of scripture, hopefully.

In my mind, there is no doubt God is sovereign in salvation. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our Faith. All those who are sons of God are born by the will of God. His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name, and they follow Him. No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom He wills to reveal Him. And so on.

I say that not to debate the meanings of those verses, but to show, in my mind a scriptural foundation for what I believe.

Now let’s consider the “inconsistency” argument. That, I am inconsistent with my view of God’s sovereignty unless I believe any who don’t hold to my view is unsaved.

Paul regularly writes to believers on how to reconcile differences of opinion on important issues. These include meat sacrificed to idols, days of worship, speaking in tongues etc. He tells us “let each be convinced in his own mind”, and speaks of Christians maturing in their understanding of important issues.

Clearly, Paul urged everyone to be of the same mind, but also realized they weren’t always in agreement.

From these responses by Paul, we form the doctrine of Christian liberty. In non essential doctrine, we bare with our brothers in Christ.

Based on scripture, I do not believe everyone understanding God’s sovereignty in salvation as I do is necessary for salvation.

Therefore, I hold that God is sovereign in salvation and other believers do not have to agree with me and I am still be consistent in the view of God’s sovereignty based on scripture.

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Greetings,

It is very sad that you as a "pastor" responds in such an underhanded and arrogant response, which is not of the spirit of meekness, and humility of heart..........interesting.......

In His Love.....

It is very sad that you are more concerned with that than with the issue it was addressing, namely, that the brother suspects that Christians who reject Calvinism their lifelong are not at all Christians, but rather lost souls will burn in fire for ever.

It is very sad that such a reply is perceived by modern Christianity as "underhanded and arrogant" given the occasional saltiness - to say the least- of the Lord's own answers and of the apostle Paul to men who were experts at presenting the sophisticated exterior of religiosity while their minds burned with scorn.

It is very sad that you have replaced our Lord as judge of what's in my heart, especially as you stepped into an old conversation whereof you know nothing.

It is very sad that your very comment reflects just what you accuse.
I pointed out to the brother that he once before shared what he suspected whereas now he was claiming he doesn't.
For that, you accused me of underhandedness, pride, and arrogance.
Which is worse?

It has been my experience that the men who most tout their own discerning powers, are the least discerning of men.

 

[AustinC]

It is very sad that you are more concerned with that than with the issue it was addressing, namely, that the brother suspects that Christians who reject Calvinism their lifelong are not at all Christians, but rather lost souls will burn in fire for ever.

It is very sad that such a reply is perceived by modern Christianity as "underhanded and arrogant" given the occasional saltiness - to say the least- of the Lord's own answers and of the apostle Paul to men who were experts at presenting the sophisticated exterior of religiosity while their minds burned with scorn.

It is very sad that you have replaced our Lord as judge of what's in my heart, especially as you stepped into an old conversation whereof you know nothing.

It is very sad that your very comment reflects just what you accuse.

I pointed out to the brother that he once before shared what he suspected whereas now he was claiming he doesn't.
For that, you accused me of underhandedness, pride, and arrogance.
Which is worse?

It has been my experience that the men who most tout their own discerning powers, are the least discerning of men.

George, I have not seen the post where someone claims a person cannot be a child of God if they don't have a Reformed theology. If that was said, then that person is wrong.
As humans we are brought to Christ with all the baggage and garbage of humanism and self-pride still clinging to us and still demanding its authority over our lives. It is not surprising then that the majority of Christians come to faith with the prideful idea that they caused God to save them by their own willful choice. It is exactly what a baby, who is all about themselves, would do. In their ignorance they would think they are the rulers who cause mother to pick them up and feed them. Over time, however, as the child matures and is weaned, the child realizes that they are subject to an authority that birthed them into the world, sustains them, nurtures them and protects them in life. They realize that they are not in control, but are in fact being lovingly controlled by caring parents.

So it is with us as believers. The more we grow in understanding God and His Word, the more we realize His total authority over us. We realize that our birth was an intentional act by God to new life in Christ.

Now, it is evident in the epistles that the early church had a problem with some children never growing up in maturity. Yes, they longed and craved spiritual milk, but their palate never grew up into eating solid food and meat. They remained selfish babies who were ignorant of their position in the family. This didn't make them less Christian, but it did make them less capable of fighting the enemy because they were spiritually weak from malnourishment of only drinking milk.
So it is with the person who never realizes the Sovereign Authority of God in redeeming, saving, and sanctifying them unto glorification. Such persons remain selfish in their demands of God as though they controlled their Father with their actions.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok, now I understand the point of the OP. I disagree. Let me explain why. This will be a little more lengthy than I like to post, so bare with me.

We all base what we believe on our understanding of scripture, hopefully.

In my mind, there is no doubt God is sovereign in salvation. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our Faith. All those who are sons of God are born by the will of God. His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name, and they follow Him. No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom He wills to reveal Him. And so on.

I say that not to debate the meanings of those verses, but to show, in my mind a scriptural foundation for what I believe.

Now let’s consider the “inconsistency” argument. That, I am inconsistent with my view of God’s sovereignty unless I believe any who don’t hold to my view is unsaved.

Paul regularly writes to believers on how to reconcile differences of opinion on important issues. These include meat sacrificed to idols, days of worship, speaking in tongues etc. He tells us “let each be convinced in his own mind”, and speaks of Christians maturing in their understanding of important issues.

Clearly, Paul urged everyone to be of the same mind, but also realized they weren’t always in agreement.

From these responses by Paul, we form the doctrine of Christian liberty. In non essential doctrine, we bare with our brothers in Christ.

Based on scripture, I do not believe everyone understanding God’s sovereignty in salvation as I do is necessary for salvation.

Therefore, I hold that God is sovereign in salvation and other believers do not have to agree with me and I am still be consistent in the view of God’s sovereignty based on scripture.

peace to you

Based on this answer which is really the same as a previous answer there still seems to be s disconnect between us. If God is sovereign according the the reformed definition of His sovereignty in salvation but then their are those who after claiming salvation do not hold to reformed theology and you find that they are saved but just wrong then you have to admit that God's sovereignty over the Christian after salvation is not the same as during the salvation process (for lack of a better word.). This is because he did not irresistibly make Christians all reformed after salvation. The is an inconsistent view of the soveriegnty of God. You previous answer does not address this.

 

[George Antonios]

George, I have not seen the post where someone claims a person cannot be a child of God if they don't have a Reformed theology. If that was said, then that person is wrong.

Please see post #54 for specifics.

 

[CalTech]

It is very sad that you are more concerned with that than with the issue it was addressing, namely, that the brother suspects that Christians who reject Calvinism their lifelong are not at all Christians, but rather lost souls will burn in fire for ever.

It is very sad that such a reply is perceived by modern Christianity as "underhanded and arrogant" given the occasional saltiness - to say the least- of the Lord's own answers and of the apostle Paul to men who were experts at presenting the sophisticated exterior of religiosity while their minds burned with scorn.

It is very sad that you have replaced our Lord as judge of what's in my heart, especially as you stepped into an old conversation whereof you know nothing.

It is very sad that your very comment reflects just what you accuse.
I pointed out to the brother that he once before shared what he suspected whereas now he was claiming he doesn't.
For that, you accused me of underhandedness, pride, and arrogance.
Which is worse?

It has been my experience that the men who most tout their own discerning powers, are the least discerning of men.

Greetings,

I am concerned with the issue at hand, for I am not a believer of a "free will" conversion or acceptance, it is still based upon a person's "self-worth". So you are incorrect in your baseless presumption.

I am not of any "modern Christianity", that is you. As for the rest of your comment, well you have just stated a mirror image of yourself.
I have not read your heart, I read your words, and felt the spirit behind it. I am aware of the discussion for I have read and do agree with DavidG's stance. So I do have the biblical stance to stand along with my brother when he is falsely accused. And you were actually accusing him of changing his mind.....so please stop with the hypocrisy.

I stand by my words, for that is what you were doing. And yes, I would state you are the "least discerning of men" for you do not know the depths of your wicked fleshly heart. Unless you are born-again from above, that means through the Working Power of the Holy Spirit unto repentance and forgiveness, then you are not saved. Plain and simple.


In His Love....

 

[AustinC]

Please see post #54 for specifics.

I see two quotes from DaveG. The first is from post #53, but I cannot identify where the second quote, attributed to DaveG is actually found.


Notice, there is no connection to anything.

Regardless, Dave ends with "are probably not saved" which is not the same as saying they are not saved. In post 53, I see DaveG carefully explaining the process of maturing in the faith. This is in agreement with what I have stated regarding maturation in the faith. Do you find it inaccurate to expect Christians will start eating solid food and thus realize through honest Bible Study that God has Sovereignly drawn them from before the foundation of the world?

 

[CalTech]

I don't think you truly understand what the Calvinist position is brother.
That's probably why the conversation has shifted to an unrelated discussion.

Greetings,

I have some knowledge about "Calvinism" but it comes from men who have written about what he believed. I do agree that humans are absolutely spiritually dead, and only the Spirit of the Lord can draw them unto Himself. Nothing more, and nothing less.
I was taught by the Lord and His Holy Spirit on this issue back in the mid 90's. I stay away from all these "men labels" that carnal men love to label certain belief systems after. Instead of Just Lifting the Lord and His name Higher, they lift men up and make idols out of them.

I did not shift from the "related discussion".........only in your imagination.

In His Love....