If I think it is a sin?

[Darrell C]

What God has not strictly forbidden is acceptable, but at times we need to not use our freedom in Christ if that meant using it would cause another brother to stumble or fall!

Again, I have to disagree. He has not strictly forbidden the use of marijuana, but it too alters the mind.

He has not explicitly forbidden drinking diet Pepsi, but it contains chemicals that are bad for you.

if we were to meet to do lunch, would order my diet pepsi , and not order any alcohol at all!

WHAT?!


Just kidding,




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I enjoy worshiping the Lord with Bach, with Elvis, with casting Crowns and mercy Me!

I love classical music, it is the original Heavy Metal. Trans Siberian Orchestra's Midnight in Sarajevo is a good picture of the harmony found in good metal. Unfortunately metal carries (for the most part) a message that does not glorify Christ. I just recently heard Skillet's "The Resistance" and like it a lot. It's the message, mainly, accompanied by forceful music. I like the idea it presents of Christians on the march for Christ. Not in a militant way, but in a way where we are at war with the spiritual powers of evil, and that we have already won the war. This is our world and they can never have it.

Used to be a huge Elvis fan as a kid, but not so much anymore. He did some great Gospel songs but his life casts a shadow over his "worship" music.

Casting Crowns is hands down my favorite contemporary Christian band. What I like about their music is, again, the message. Steps on toes, doesn't it? Similar to "The Resistance," I like the "on the march" message of "'Til the whole world hears." But in regards to worship, they have some great songs that I feel we can worship alongside. But I agree with the lead singer, I don't feel they are appropriate for a worship service.

And I like Mercy Me as well. I didn't watch the movie, because every time I watch a biographical movie it always sours me on the person, lol. I watched the one about Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys (was a huge fan when I was a kid, also, Jan and Dean, still like to hear them from time to time), and while I already knew about his depression and what he went through, now I know more than I want to, lol.

If you've never listened to "Old City Bar" by Trans Siberian Orchestra, check it out. I love the message it holds. That song makes me weep, usually. One of the saddest songs in the sense of what I view to be God working in the lives of those we might view as unbelievers.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, you could be considered sinning for condemning another for having a drink with dinner.

That is why I said I would not condemn someone for having a drink with dinner.

However, that does not mean I will not warn that person about doing so based on my own view and the experience I have had as an alcoholic. As well as what is very clear in Scripture, that we are not to be drunken.

A glass of wine with dinner is not something I view as necessarily sinful, but I have to question why someone would opt for an alcoholic beverage to begin with. Would you admit that a glass of Welch's grape juice tastes far better than any wine? If the taste of wine is preferred, I would assume (and you know what happens when I do that, right? lol) it is because that taste has become a learned condition and preference. I can understand that too. I still like the malt taste, but the fact is, the first time people taste these beverages they usually taste pretty bad, and the reason to continue drinking them is for one purpose: to become inebriated.

That is in violation of what is expressly forbidden.

And that is what I would speak to my brother or sister about, without condemnation. I wouldn't view that as any bad than sin that is in my own life. We are all working sin out of daily conversations as we are progressively sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ.

There are two reasons. First, this would violate God's command not to judge the servant of Another.

And the argument could be presented that I fail to warn those I feel violate what we are commanded to do. And how we approach the subject, I feel, will determine which might be right.


Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


The welfare of our brother remains a constant aspect of all teaching, right? So, if I have concluded that drinking alcohol has no real purpose in the lives of my brethren and I teach according to that view, and have an irrefutable command of Scripture as the foundation of my own teaching, how exactly would it be judging rather than restoring?

And believe me, I do "consider myself," lol: I don't want to be around the consumption of alcohol in any amount. I don't want my wife or family around it. One problem many who consume alcoholic beverages have is that they don't see a problem. Most alcoholics think they drink in moderation. And it presents a place to run to when things get tough for some. Rather than running to the Lord, as they ought.

Second, while not specific to the passage (Paul assumed the "stronger" and "weaker" brother are drinking wine), Paul tells us not to be the cause of offence as one may drink wine sacrificed to idols while another may see it as idolatry.

I see nothing in the passage referring to "drinking that which is sacrificed to idols."


1 Corinthians 10:31
King James Version

31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.


In view is meat, and the general conclusion is "Whatever you do, do so in a manner that God is glorified."

So implied in the passage is the stronger or weaker brother is eating meat offered to idols, and is not constrained by superstition. There is no idol so eating the meat isn't offering up worship or acknowledging that idol has any reality. We could say there is an implication that drinking accompanies that eating, but it doesn't suggest that drunkenness is okay because a brother is stronger, lol.


1 Corinthians 11:20-22
King James Version

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.


This implies that Paul would rebuke those that are drunken.

So would this:


Romans 13:13
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.


And this:


Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


And this:


Ephesians 5:15-18 King James Version

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


Paul contrasts being drunken with being filled with the Holy Ghost.

Now let me ask this: if drinking alcoholic beverages sets us on a path in which we know we cannot be filled the Spirit of God—why would we set out on that path?

And that is the thrust of my own position on drinking alcohol. The warnings of drunkenness and Scripture's condemnation of it (not the alcohol itself) go way back:


Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.


Going back to a stronger brother eating because he knows an idol is nothing in the world, consider:


Proverbs 23:20
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:


Alcohol has its place:


Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.


But who does this? Paul prescribed wine for a sick man, but who drinks it when they are sick. When they are dying? When they are grieving? That is a far different context than eating dinner.

So, again, I am not condemning my brothers and sisters that do feel it is okay to have a glass of wine for dinner, or a beer at the ballgame, lol, but I do warn people of the dangers, because I see it doing the exact opposite of what we are told. I view it as literally quenching the Spirit of God.

This got longer than I expected so I will make it two posts, brother.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The difference here is the one who drinks wine is the "stronger" brother who should refrain from drinking for the conscious of the "weaker" brother.

I am not sure what text you would base that on, or where it would suggest drinking wine is "okay" for a Christian. I agree that a stronger brother has liberty to eat meat offered unto devils, and that he may view himself as having liberty to drink, but he has also been given a mandate to place his brothers above himself. And when a "stronger brother" advocates something that can lead to a fault in the weaker, then he has violated some very basic principles.


Romans 14:20-23 King James Version

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Have that "faith" before God, or in other words, not publicly where your brother can be influenced (pun intended).

Condemnation is a potential for what men might allow (v.22). In other words, in the context of this thread, if someone feels something is not a sin, he should be sure that view does not bring condemnation (judgment) upon him because of his influence on his brothers.

If someone thinks something is a sin, even it is isn't, he violates his conscience when he does those things.

And you don't want to be the one to talk someone into committing sin just because you don't think it is.

So if you feel drinking a glass of wine is okay, and you do not feel it is quenching the Spirit, wouldn't it be best not to convince someone who does to follow your practice?

So in your question there are two at fault - the one condemning the brother for having the glass of wine and the brother having the glass of wine at the expense of his brother.

So what's the best solution?

I agree: don't drink wine.



If one chooses to believe they have liberty to drink wine, it seems that Paul is saying "Do it at home and not before your brother/s."

Regardless, getting drunk is forbidden, and on that point it isn't a "grey area," it's an absolute command given us in Scripture. We are not "judging/condemning" when we seek to correct this fault in a brother, and it is our responsibility to tr to correct that brother. If we do not, we are again in direct violation of a direct command for our lives as Christians.


God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, you could be considered sinning for condemning another for having a drink with dinner.

There are two reasons. First, this would violate God's command not to judge the servant of Another. Second, while not specific to the passage (Paul assumed the "stronger" and "weaker" brother are drinking wine), Paul tells us not to be the cause of offence as one may drink wine sacrificed to idols while another may see it as idolatry.

The difference here is the one who drinks wine is the "stronger" brother who should refrain from drinking for the conscious of the "weaker" brother.

So in your question there are two at fault - the one condemning the brother for having the glass of wine and the brother having the glass of wine at the expense of his brother.

The stronger in their faith brother should be mindful of the other views, for if wine at the meal would offend him, do not take it, but if the other saw me taking a glass of wine do not run over and knock it out of my hand!

 

[JesusFan]

I am not sure what text you would base that on, or where it would suggest drinking wine is "okay" for a Christian. I agree that a stronger brother has liberty to eat meat offered unto devils, and that he may view himself as having liberty to drink, but he has also been given a mandate to place his brothers above himself. And when a "stronger brother" advocates something that can lead to a fault in the weaker, then he has violated some very basic principles.


Romans 14:20-23 King James Version

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Have that "faith" before God, or in other words, not publicly where your brother can be influenced (pun intended).

Condemnation is a potential for what men might allow (v.22). In other words, in the context of this thread, if someone feels something is not a sin, he should be sure that view does not bring condemnation (judgment) upon him because of his influence on his brothers.

If someone thinks something is a sin, even it is isn't, he violates his conscience when he does those things.

And you don't want to be the one to talk someone into committing sin just because you don't think it is.

So if you feel drinking a glass of wine is okay, and you do not feel it is quenching the Spirit, wouldn't it be best not to convince someone who does to follow your practice?




So what's the best solution?

I agree: don't drink wine.



If one chooses to believe they have liberty to drink wine, it seems that Paul is saying "Do it at home and not before your brother/s."

Regardless, getting drunk is forbidden, and on that point it isn't a "grey area," it's an absolute command given us in Scripture. We are not "judging/condemning" when we seek to correct this fault in a brother, and it is our responsibility to tr to correct that brother. If we do not, we are again in direct violation of a direct command for our lives as Christians.


God bless.

Did Jesus create and serve grape juice or really good wine at the wedding?

 

[JesusFan]

I love classical music, it is the original Heavy Metal. Trans Siberian Orchestra's Midnight in Sarajevo is a good picture of the harmony found in good metal. Unfortunately metal carries (for the most part) a message that does not glorify Christ. I just recently heard Skillet's "The Resistance" and like it a lot. It's the message, mainly, accompanied by forceful music. I like the idea it presents of Christians on the march for Christ. Not in a militant way, but in a way where we are at war with the spiritual powers of evil, and that we have already won the war. This is our world and they can never have it.

Used to be a huge Elvis fan as a kid, but not so much anymore. He did some great Gospel songs but his life casts a shadow over his "worship" music.

Casting Crowns is hands down my favorite contemporary Christian band. What I like about their music is, again, the message. Steps on toes, doesn't it? Similar to "The Resistance," I like the "on the march" message of "'Til the whole world hears." But in regards to worship, they have some great songs that I feel we can worship alongside. But I agree with the lead singer, I don't feel they are appropriate for a worship service.

And I like Mercy Me as well. I didn't watch the movie, because every time I watch a biographical movie it always sours me on the person, lol. I watched the one about Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys (was a huge fan when I was a kid, also, Jan and Dean, still like to hear them from time to time), and while I already knew about his depression and what he went through, now I know more than I want to, lol.

If you've never listened to "Old City Bar" by Trans Siberian Orchestra, check it out. I love the message it holds. That song makes me weep, usually. One of the saddest songs in the sense of what I view to be God working in the lives of those we might view as unbelievers.


God bless.

When Elvis sang Gospel, that is when we see what the gift of music and singing from the Lord really sounds like!

 

[Darrell C]

Did Jesus create and serve grape juice or really good wine at the wedding?

I think it was probably an intoxicating beverage.

But that is not a support for Christians doing so.

Christ also told those He healed to go and offer according to the Law. Shall we create a custom of doing that because Christ commanded them to?

See the problem there?

We might see why He objected to being asked by His mother in regards to this worldly concern, no?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

When Elvis sang Gospel, that is when we see what the gift of music and singing from the Lord really sounds like!

Elvis was a hack.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

When Elvis sang Gospel, that is when we see what the gift of music and singing from the Lord really sounds like!

I'm just kidding, lol.

But, you can't deny he was a (hound) dog.

We have his specific statement that he was, and that is incontrovertible.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

When Elvis sang Gospel, that is when we see what the gift of music and singing from the Lord really sounds like!

And it raises a great question: is shooting at a television a sin?

How about eating fried peanut butter and banana and mayonnaise sandwiches?

And if it isn't, would it be proper to serve a red, or should it be a white wine one had with it?

Or maybe a snifter of cognac?


God bless.

 

[JonC]

I am not sure what text you would base that on, or where it would suggest drinking wine is "okay" for a Christian. I agree that a stronger brother has liberty to eat meat offered unto devils, and that he may view himself as having liberty to drink, but he has also been given a mandate to place his brothers above himself. And when a "stronger brother" advocates something that can lead to a fault in the weaker, then he has violated some very basic principles.

1st Corinthians 8. Another passage is Matthew 11:19, which indicates Christ ate meat and drank wine (not to excess yet they called Him a drunkard and a glutton).

You are right that we set aside these things for the benefit of a brother.

 

[Darrell C]

1st Corinthians 8. Another passage is Matthew 11:19, which indicates Christ ate meat and drank wine (not to excess yet they called Him a drunkard and a glutton).

You are right that we set aside these things for the benefit of a brother.

I think that if it were allowed that because Christ drank wine that this means it is okay for Christians to do so, I think some apologies are in order to CalTech and Scripture More Accurately (hope I got that right). This is a basis for their reasoning in the other thread.

I myself do not see this as a solid basis (though I am not dismissing it either) because we have to factor in the cultural aspects as well as admit that not everything Christ commanded is something we (the Church) are to do.


Matthew 8:4
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


Using that type of basis we should also still be offering up the gift Moses commanded, right?

Right—wring, lol.

Okay Jon, been good to talk with you guys again, and I hope to see you at the next appointed time. Time for me to take my leave and get myself back on course with the many things I have been neglecting, lol.


God bless.

 

[JonC]

I think that if it were allowed that because Christ drank wine that this means it is okay for Christians to do so, I think some apologies are in order to CalTech and Scripture More Accurately (hope I got that right). This is a basis for their reasoning in the other thread.

I myself do not see this as a solid basis (though I am not dismissing it either) because we have to factor in the cultural aspects as well as admit that not everything Christ commanded is something we (the Church) are to do.


Matthew 8:4
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


Using that type of basis we should also still be offering up the gift Moses commanded, right?

Right—wring, lol.

Okay Jon, been good to talk with you guys again, and I hope to see you at the next appointed time. Time for me to take my leave and get myself back on course with the many things I have been neglecting, lol.


God bless.

We do have to factor in cultural aspects, I agree.

The bottom line is not whether we are free to drink but how drinking affects our witness. Does it create an appearance of evil in the minds of some? If so, don't drink.

Christian freedom is never an opportunity for the flesh, but something we lay aside for another.

 

[JesusFan]

I think it was probably an intoxicating beverage.

But that is not a support for Christians doing so.

Christ also told those He healed to go and offer according to the Law. Shall we create a custom of doing that because Christ commanded them to?

See the problem there?

We might see why He objected to being asked by His mother in regards to this worldly concern, no?


God bless.

Would Jesus have created real wine and had them drink it if was a sin to do such then?

 

[JesusFan]

Elvis was a hack.




God bless.

One of the greatest singers who ever lived!